Can lessons be a waste of time?

[hovis]

I said he was spot on, you posted my quote.

The bodies natural sequencing is natural where you let it be. Throw a stone, throw a dart, throw a javelin, your body uses its natural kinetic sequence to maximise the throwing action. If you let a child hit a golf ball with a club, without telling them how to do it they will soon naturally create an optimum motion to swing the club. What happens in traditional coaching is the student gets taught how to move their hips, shoulders, arms, wrists, torso, they are told to move the club through various checkpoints and the result is often a tense uncoordinated swipe at the ball with no real concept of how to create good club ball impact. It can also be bandaid fixes like putting down a head cover, put a towel under your arms, hold a ball between your elbows, these things might help for five minutes but in no time the student will return to their previous ways because they still don't really understand what is creating their thin/fat/ slice/hook.

I'm not interested in what he charges or 'What good players he has under him' (whatever that means) that's just white noise. The issue for me is what is the best way to teach golfers to play better golf and my observations are people like him and Joe Hagen have taken a refreshing approach that can really improve how people play the game.

Has he made any difference to your game? I'm not being arsey, it's a genuine question.
What players a golf pro has under him is a direct measure of how good he is as a coach. After 15 minutes of searching I've come up cold. If what he was teaching was as good as you say he'd have at least a few. I'm not saying what he teaches is wrong as I've never had a lesson with him and never tried his stuff. He just seems like a Derek trotter of the golf world.

 

[Backsticks]

The approach used in this video is a good example of how golf should be taught IMO.

https://fb.watch/gfNxVYRXRI/

Heres another to promote some thought to learning:

Strikes me more as golf verbal diarrhea.

Strong contender for a prize for most words used to say nothing.

 

[Backsticks]

I said he was spot on, you posted my quote.

The bodies natural sequencing is natural where you let it be. Throw a stone, throw a dart, throw a javelin, your body uses its natural kinetic sequence to maximise the throwing action. If you let a child hit a golf ball with a club, without telling them how to do it they will soon naturally create an optimum motion to swing the club.

.i.e. the best golf coach is not to have one at all ?

 

[SocketRocket]

.i.e. the best golf coach is not to have one at all ?

I don't agree. Some don't need one, some need one who can clear their minds of dross they have been taught and show them how to be more uninhibited and free of tension in their golf swing, some need help with getting out of bunkers and short game. Not having one at all is a slight simplification.

 

[SocketRocket]

Strikes me more as golf verbal diarrhea.

Strong contender for a prize for most words used to say nothing.

If that's all you see in it then that seems somewhat blinkered to me but of course feel free to see what you want.

 

[SocketRocket]

Has he made any difference to your game? I'm not being arsey, it's a genuine question.
What players a golf pro has under him is a direct measure of how good he is as a coach. After 15 minutes of searching I've come up cold. If what he was teaching was as good as you say he'd have at least a few. I'm not saying what he teaches is wrong as I've never had a lesson with him and never tried his stuff. He just seems like a Derek trotter of the golf world.

I don't understand who you think he should have under him. One assumes he improves golfers who are struggling with their games, isn't that what Teaching Golf Professionals are supposed to do but they are not 'Under Him'.
Regarding the Derek Trotter comment, I'm not sure why you needed to say that.

 

[BridgfordBlue]

From what I have heard PGA pros teaching at the ranges, it is very much hood the club face going back and then on the down swing turn hard left, which is the only way you can square the club face.

Whilst this seems logical, the amount of players I have seen that have had pretty consistent swings all of a sudden cannot keep the ball in play is shocking. I watch a player over a period of 3-4 months go from a steady 3 handicap player to someone who is struggling to break 90, due to the massive hooks and pulls. Granted when he is on song he is a good club longer and he may well groove the swing but until then he does not know where or when his miss will be.

Today all seems to be about power and don't worry too much about accuracy. Which to some degree I agree with this, however, if you are missing the fairways and green by large amounts then all the power in the world won't help.

I am definitely in the camp of needing and wanting more power and distance and I am willing to lose some accuracy but not to the point where Im missing fairways and greens by massive margins.

Disagree with this. I had a few lessons recently and the pro suggested I try this due to my grip and my wrist movement in the backswing, he also said he wouldn’t show 95% of the people he teaches to do a similar movement he was getting me to do.

That method is reliant on a lot of things that a lot of people can’t do. There’s always individual actions that a pro takes into account with things like that. If they’re not factoring that in, then I’d look for a different pro.

 

[Slab]

The approach used in this video is a good example of how golf should be taught IMO.

https://fb.watch/gfNxVYRXRI/

Heres another to promote some thought to learning:

I think he has a point (2nd vid) although the presentation and communication leave quite a bit to be desired (& maybe putting off viewers from listening)

It’d be great if we could just use our brains natural swing and still get the desired shot result (which is maybe where the vid should’ve started instead of leaving a poorly presented red/green/blue ‘demo’ to the end) but I think every player is still going to have to go someway down the ‘orthodox’ path of learning how to swing a club in order to make their natural swing effective/workable.
Problem is once you start down that path and see the improved results of doing xyz (which wasn't in your initial swing) why would anyone not take another step and another and so on… and suddenly you’re quite far removed from what you initially had as your natural swing

 

[SocketRocket]

I think he has a point (2nd vid) although the presentation and communication leave quite a bit to be desired (& maybe putting off viewers from listening)

It’d be great if we could just use our brains natural swing and still get the desired shot result (which is maybe where the vid should’ve started instead of leaving a poorly presented red/green/blue ‘demo’ to the end) but I think every player is still going to have to go someway down the ‘orthodox’ path of learning how to swing a club in order to make their natural swing effective/workable.
Problem is once you start down that path and see the improved results of doing xyz (which wasn't in your initial swing) why would anyone not take another step and another and so on… and suddenly you’re quite far removed from what you initially had as your natural swing

It's worth looking at some of his other videos where he shows how to use our natural kinetic process in the golf swing.

 

[Swango1980]

I did watch the clip (the youTube one, second one I think). My only criticism is that he spent an absolute age at the start just saying the same thing over and over again. I know there needs to be an introduction, but he went on so long that I actually thought it was going to be one of those videos where the entire thing simply describes the problem, and then at the very end it says you need to make a payment to view videos of the solution.

 

[Slab]

It's worth looking at some of his other videos where he shows how to use our natural kinetic process in the golf swing.

That's the thing though, he may have some really interesting stuff to say but based on this example I just couldn't until he invests in his online productions
He could have this weeks loto numbers or a cure for cancer but its not gonna reach the audience it deserves when its basically a 15min cctv recording without a script

I'm actually interested in (not necessarily my natural swing) but in swinging the club fluidly without any physical or mental tension and i think it might be connected to some of what he says but someone else might need to tell his story for me to get it

 

[SocketRocket]

That's the thing though, he may have some really interesting stuff to say but based on this example I just couldn't until he invests in his online productions
He could have this weeks loto numbers or a cure for cancer but its not gonna reach the audience it deserves when its basically a 15min cctv recording without a script

I'm actually interested in (not necessarily my natural swing) but in swinging the club fluidly without any physical or mental tension and i think it might be connected to some of what he says but someone else might need to tell his story for me to get it

OK , here's an abridged version:

Throw a golf ball into the distance. Note the way you automatically use your body to generate speed and weight shift. Do the same with your golf swing. ?

 

[Neilds]

OK , here's an abridged version:

Throw a golf ball into the distance. Note the way you automatically use your body to generate speed and weight shift. Do the same with your golf swing. ?

Is that an underarm throw or overarm? And What happens if i want to throw it further, or straighter, or with a fade/draw?

 

[SocketRocket]

Is that an underarm throw or overarm? And What happens if i want to throw it further, or straighter, or with a fade/draw?

He explains that.

Although, it doesn't really matter if it's over or underhand, the lesson is the way you would sequence your body naturally. If you wanted to throw a golf ball 20 yards or 100 yards you would instinctively know how to do it.

The shaping of the shot is also something he explains very well, it's quite simple to understand.

I know you were pulling my leg but I find some of the comments here are sadly criticizing the way he explains things and missing the underlying message which could help a lot of Golfers improve their game.

 

[Swango1980]

He explains that.

Although, it doesn't really matter if it's over or underhand, the lesson is the way you would sequence your body naturally. If you wanted to throw a golf ball 20 yards or 100 yards you would instinctively know how to do it.

The shaping of the shot is also something he explains very well, it's quite simple to understand.

I know you were pulling my leg but I find some of the comments here are sadly criticizing the way he explains things and missing the underlying message which could help a lot of Golfers improve their game.

He is only imagining pulling your leg softly, and then more rigorously, and trying to find out what the natural sequencing of his body would be to do this

 

[hovis]

OK , here's an abridged version:

Throw a golf ball into the distance. Note the way you automatically use your body to generate speed and weight shift. Do the same with your golf swing. ?

That's a really bad example. The thing that sets golf apart from other movements is you are hitting an object with another object with pin point precision. All this is made harder by the fact that your feet are and body remain stationary/centred The reason throwing a ball is easy is because your feet have total freedom. To the point where some will lift their knee to the chest. Keeping the feet planted is not a natural movement. I know that the feet are not cemented to the floor before you say. We'd all be playing like happy Gilmore if we done what felt natural

 

[SocketRocket]

That's a really bad example. The thing that sets golf apart from other movements is you are hitting an object with another object with pin point precision. All this is made harder by the fact that your feet are and body remain stationary/centred The reason throwing a ball is easy is because your feet have total freedom. To the point where some will lift their knee to the chest. Keeping the feet planted is not a natural movement. I know that the feet are not cemented to the floor before you say. We'd all be playing like happy Gilmore if we done what felt natural

I don't agree with any of that. When you throw a golf ball you don't take a run up at it, you simply transfer your weight back and through, you unwind from the ground up so that you can finally accelerate your arms and then wrists using the freedom space and genetic energy you have created. Yes, you are using a golf club to hit a ball but you have to create good impact conditions that require speed and angle of attack, many golfers never achieve these as they are constructed with tension in the body and poor sequencing.

Throwing is easy because our body knows how to do it correctly just like swinging axe, sledge hammer, anything but a golf club due to our minds misunderstanding the task because of the traditional confusing methods being taught.

 

[hovis]

I don't agree with any of that. When you throw a golf ball you don't take a run up at it, you simply transfer your weight back and through, you unwind from the ground up so that you can finally accelerate your arms and then wrists using the freedom space and genetic energy you have created. Yes, you are using a golf club to hit a ball but you have to create good impact conditions that require speed and angle of attack, many golfers never achieve these as they are constructed with tension in the body and poor sequencing.

Throwing is easy because our body knows how to do it correctly just like swinging axe, sledge hammer, anything but a golf club due to our minds misunderstanding the task because of the traditional confusing methods being taught.

You don't take a run up at it? Do you watch cricket? They most definitely take a run up. Even if you didn't you still lift the lead leg clean off the floor to aid the back swing Durring a throw. Look at a pitcher!!!!, tWhen you swing an axe or large hammer hard you lift the lead leg clean off the floor. You also have one hand almost next to the head of the implement. At the end of the "back swing" you allow the lead arm to fold and you slide the hand all the way down from the head to the handle. It's a completely different movement to golf. All of the movements you make throwing a ball or swinging an axe force the body to work correctly. We can't do that in golf or you'll miss the ball.

A golf swing is not a natural movement like you are suggesting.

 

[Swango1980]

You don't take a run up at it? Do you watch cricket? They most definitely take a run up. Even if you didn't you still lift the lead leg clean off the floor to aid the back swing Durring a throw. Look at a pitcher!!!!, tWhen you swing an axe or large hammer hard you lift the lead leg clean off the floor. You also have one hand almost next to the head of the implement. At the end of the "back swing" you allow the lead arm to fold and you slide the hand all the way down from the head to the handle. It's a completely different movement to golf. All of the movements you make throwing a ball or swinging an axe force the body to work correctly. We can't do that in golf or you'll miss the ball.

A golf swing is not a natural movement like you are suggesting.

I mean, no one is saying swinging a golf club is exactly the same motion as throwing a ball or swinging a cricket bat, and throwing a ball is not the same as swinging a cricket bat.

But, the point is, there will be a natural body movement to swing a golf club most effectively. It will be a natural flowing body movement. It would be difficult to tell anyone McIlroy's swing is not a natural flowing movement. Sure, he'll have done a million drills over his lifetime to refine this, and I'm sure many will have been to improve / maintain that flowing movement.

Of course, to most people swinging a golf ball is not a natural movement, because they don't do it enough. And, when they learn, they are so bogged down with drills they probably naturally develop loads of tension. So, it would be useful if they could learn to feel this.

Throwing a ball is not a natural movement btw to some people. And, most of us know exactly how that feels if we throw with our wrong hand.

 

[hovis]

I mean, no one is saying swinging a golf club is exactly the same motion as throwing a ball or swinging a cricket bat, and throwing a ball is not the same as swinging a cricket bat.

But, the point is, there will be a natural body movement to swing a golf club most effectively. It will be a natural flowing body movement. It would be difficult to tell anyone McIlroy's swing is not a natural flowing movement. Sure, he'll have done a million drills over his lifetime to refine this, and I'm sure many will have been to improve / maintain that flowing movement.

Of course, to most people swinging a golf ball is not a natural movement, because they don't do it enough. And, when they learn, they are so bogged down with drills they probably naturally develop loads of tension. So, it would be useful if they could learn to feel this.

Throwing a ball is not a natural movement btw to some people. And, most of us know exactly how that feels if we throw with our wrong hand.

I can't disagree with anything you have written. My problem is with the notion that body movement is king. I personally prefer the concept of " think about where you are putting the club and the body will do its thing. When I play tennis I never think about a single thing the body is doing. I just let it respond to what I'm doing with my hands. Do you think about anything other than your hand when you are throwing a ball?
This zen stuff (to me) looks like it's the tail trying to wag the dog

Like a I said before, this is from zero experience with zen because I haven't had a lesson from him. I wouldn't either at that price. Being as socket rocket like his concept so much I would very much like to hear from him if he ever has a zen lesson.