Bury F.C

[Crazyface]

Their first match of the season cancelled. Things don't look great. This hits at the very heart of English football. I feel very sorry for the supporters of Bury FC and hope that they will be able to overcome their current problems but feel that this has really been a long time coming. As soon as the premiership was formed, and split itself off, it was the slippery slope. All the money is now tipped into it and the other clubs have to fight for the ever dwindling scraps. Bolton are in a proper mess too and could go under. Just think. Bolton Wanderers. Can you believe that such an iconic English football club could soon be no more? This is nothing short of disgusting that the premiership does nothing to help. It could be likened to standing by and watch a man drown with a shrug of the shoulders. Do you think all the foreign players give a flying one? Nope. They'll take all their money and run when they are no longer required. Back to their homelands. What can we do? We could cancel all subscriptions to the football channels until some of the money we spend on them is given to the lower leagues. That would be a start. Plus the government should tax the footballers "until the pips squeak". And then hand that money to the lower leagues as well. Will this happen? Naaaaaa. No one cares really do they?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Not sure the situation at Bury is fully the fault of the PL and similarly at Bolton. Granted the further down the pyramid you go the less money there is in terms of TV revenue and gate money etc but the demise of these clubs, along with the ongoing issues Blackpool recently went through stem more from a lack of investment and indeed poor management from the chairmen, looking to make what seemed a quick buck or two and buy cheap and sell for a profit without any feeling for the fans or the integrity of the club and its history.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I'm surprised that the league are allowing the postponments. Surely there should be a date at the beginning of July where you can prove you are financially able to start the season. If you can't meet that then you are expelled from the league and another team takes your place. The same occurs regarding ground standards, you ground either meets the standards or out you go. How can we be days from the start of the season and 2 teams, and all the teams in their division, have no idea if they can meet their fixtures? It is crazy.

The fault for both teams lies squarely with the owners, chasing dreams a la Leeds.

 

[Crazyface]

I'm surprised that the league are allowing the postponments. Surely there should be a date at the beginning of July where you can prove you are financially able to start the season. If you can't meet that then you are expelled from the league and another team takes your place. The same occurs regarding ground standards, you ground either meets the standards or out you go. How can we be days from the start of the season and 2 teams, and all the teams in their division, have no idea if they can meet their fixtures? It is crazy.

The fault for both teams lies squarely with the owners, chasing dreams a la Leeds.

Not sure that the fault can be laid at the feet of owners chasing adulation. It must be bonkers expensive to pay for and upkeep some of those grounds without the income of a top team and TV money. Not to mention, players, coaches, physios, groundstaff, admin staff, caterers etc etc.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Not sure that the fault can be laid at the feet of owners chasing adulation. It must be bonkers expensive to pay for and upkeep some of those grounds without the income of a top team and TV money. Not to mention, players, coaches, physios, groundstaff, admin staff, caterers etc etc.

You have to cut your cloth accordingly. They are running a business and income has to meet expenditure. If expenditure exceeds income then you are in trouble. When it exceeds by hundreds of thousands a month over a period of years then that is negligence on a big scale. Football clubs have kicked the ball down the road for years, believing HMRC or the banks will not foreclose on them. No business could keep running with those losses, why should clubs?

The biggest expenditure for a club will the wage bill of the players, not the groundstaff, admin, caterers etc. Clubs overpay their players hugely at a cost to the rest of the club.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I have given up watching football ( on tv ) almost completely since the outrageous wages being paid to the players started. The import of foreign players started it, and it would not have happened ( as much )if they were limited to one or two per team.
As someone who hasn't ever been an out and out supporter of a specific team, I am amazed at the fervent support given by those that do. But I do admire them for it , ( they are there through thick and thin, and some are having a lot of thin )And it is those fans that would save the football league if the ruling bodies had the guts to go back to proper representation of the clubs by drastically cutting foreign players and wages.
Why? Because if you had such a set up, say best players on a maximum wage of 10, 000 a week, and then pro rata, those fans would still turn up and enjoy their game. More of them too, as costs to watch would be lower.
But also, the gaps between the higher and lower leagues would be smaller and funds within the game would mean lower clubs surviving.
Someone talked of lack of investment in lower clubs.
Be realistic, what chairman will ( can ) spend millions on one player in efforts to avoid relegation or achieve promotion? It just cannot go on without the whole league eventually collapsing or compacting into just ten or so very rich clubs in a few major cities.
With some courage and effort there is no reason why we can't have a football league like it was in the fifties/ sixties in terms of egalitarianism.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

You have to cut your cloth accordingly. They are running a business and income has to meet expenditure. If expenditure exceeds income then you are in trouble. When it exceeds by hundreds of thousands a month over a period of years then that is negligence on a big scale. Football clubs have kicked the ball down the road for years, believing HMRC or the banks will not foreclose on them. No business could keep running with those losses, why should clubs?

The biggest expenditure for a club will the wage bill of the players, not the groundstaff, admin, caterers etc. Clubs overpay their players hugely at a cost to the rest of the club.

Very true, if you cannot make money from your core product then you are in trouble.
Investing for future equity nearly always ends in tears.
Ask many propriety golf club owners about that.

 

[Wolf]

I think LT has nailed it.

Blaming the Premier League is imo a huge cop out for teams like Bury. A club of their stature shouldn't be relying on TV handouts filtering down the ladder. Fans should understand and accept that as a simple fact, why would the nation want to tune in to watch Bury v Doncaster, when they can watch Man City v Liverpool etc. So the amount of revenue is cut accordingly and fans have to accept that rather than whine about it.

I grew up in Medway, Gillingham was our local team and they did nothing to interact with community or draw in local support. Now I live in Lincoln and see the difference is night and day. They do so much locally with fans, businesses etc which garners interest in them and players which means increase footfall at games for bigger gate receipts, that then goes back into the club and success is happening.

These are things teams like Bury need to do more, it's easy to blame the bigger boys for failure though than it is to accept the clubs internal faikings as a business. It's nobody else's fault the club is failing financially, that sits squarely with the clubs board and management getting their finances wrong. If a club can't be financially viable at the start of a season that's the fault of themselves nobody else.

 

[Crazyface]

I think LT has nailed it.

Blaming the Premier League is imo a huge cop out for teams like Bury. A club of their stature shouldn't be relying on TV handouts filtering down the ladder. Fans should understand and accept that as a simple fact, why would the nation want to tune in to watch Bury v Doncaster, when they can watch Man City v Liverpool etc. So the amount of revenue is cut accordingly and fans have to accept that rather than whine about it.

I grew up in Medway, Gillingham was our local team and they did nothing to interact with community or draw in local support. Now I live in Lincoln and see the difference is night and day. They do so much locally with fans, businesses etc which garners interest in them and players which means increase footfall at games for bigger gate receipts, that then goes back into the club and success is happening.

These are things teams like Bury need to do more, it's easy to blame the bigger boys for failure though than it is to accept the clubs internal faikings as a business. It's nobody else's fault the club is failing financially, that sits squarely with the clubs board and management getting their finances wrong. If a club can't be financially viable at the start of a season that's the fault of themselves nobody else.

A tad simplistic. My home team tried all that carp years ago and it got them nowhere. The ONLY thing that brings in the crowds is success and that costs money ( a life at MTFC actually). Cutting your cloth is virtually impossible. The revenue just is not there to actually sustain a club. All clubs need a stupid benefactor. And don't give me the carp that the premiership teams all cut their cloth. ALL are owned by mega rich nutters with more money than sense and chuck their dosh (MILLIONS) at their little pet projects. It looks to me as though even them have said nutz to those prices this year! Don't make me laugh if you think your premiership team is paying it's own way. It's not!

 

[Crazyface]

And also a little sad that, bar one so far, you thinks it's Bury's own fault.

 

[Wolf]

A tad simplistic. My home team tried all that carp years ago and it got them nowhere. The ONLY thing that brings in the crowds is success and that costs money ( a life at MTFC actually). Cutting your cloth is virtually impossible. The revenue just is not there to actually sustain a club. All clubs need a stupid benefactor. And don't give me the carp that the premiership teams all cut their cloth. ALL are owned by mega rich nutters with more money than sense and chuck their dosh (MILLIONS) at their little pet projects. It looks to me as though even them have said nutz to those prices this year! Don't make me laugh if you think your premiership team is paying it's own way. It's not!

Didn't say my premiership team is paying its own way, they're not the team up for discussion here are they and by virtue of them being in that division they get the proceeds accordingly.

I also believe the wages we pay to some players is excessive and not vfm, because I am not blinded buy the fact they're who is support, plus again not the club in question in this thread are they.

Also not a simplistic view whatsoever, its call business, whether fans like it or not clubs are now businesses, smaller businesses have to manage themselves and cut cloth accordingly not rely on handouts from elsewhere to stay afloat that is simply bad business management to rely on such payments.

And also a little sad that, bar one so far, you thinks it's Bury's own fault.

Oh dear so because someone has the audacity to have a different view and believe businesses (clubs) are responsible for their own finances and actions I'm sad🙄

Let me guess when you can't pay your own bills is that someone else's fault to.

Edit: Also have you bothered to actually read the answers to the initial post that point towards issues not being down to the PL or do you skip what you don't want to read to just call out one person.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

And also a little sad that, bar one so far, you thinks it's Bury's own fault.

If it is not the fault of the owners at Bury, who is at fault? They are the ones making the signings, paying the wages. Who else is dragging the club down?

 

[Slab]

I had no idea of Bury’s problems till the headlines today

Weird to see the ground capacity is 12k but even in a successful season with promotion, leading goal scorers etc the average attendance is 4k. That’s the indicative attendance for a town with a population less than a third of the size of Bury, their average should have at least been double at around 8k

Leaving aside tv money (which the 4th div have never really had anyway) Where are the fans and what are they spending their time/money on if not their local club?

No doubt some will be making choices between Bury FC season ticket or Sky Sports subscription or an I-phone 20 on a two year contract or summat else

Who's fault is that

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Slab, if you look at where Bury is then you will see they are competing with Man Utd and City for fans, largely Utd historically I suspect. That is a battle they can not win.

 

[Slab]

Slab, if you look at where Bury is then you will see they are competing with Man Utd and City for fans, largely Utd historically I suspect. That is a battle they can not win.

Yeah the geography says there will 'fans' in Bury following the big teams... but there's not enough seats in those two stadiums for demand from fans in Manchester let alone the surrounding towns and its a problem every club faces, but yes especially those towns nearest. So its not fans from Bury going to Utd/City games en-masse, its just they're choosing not to go to Bury games because the numbers say they are under supported for the town population

So are football fans in Bury spending their money on a sky sports pack to watch Man U & City instead of a Bury match ticket

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Yeah the geography says there will 'fans' in Bury following the big teams... but there's not enough seats in those two stadiums for demand from fans in Manchester let alone the surrounding towns and its a problem every club faces, but yes especially those towns nearest. So its not fans from Bury going to Utd/City games en-masse, its just they're choosing not to go to Bury games because the numbers say they are under supported for the town population

So are football fans in Bury spending their money on a sky sports pack to watch Man U & City instead of a Bury match ticket

Bury is in Greater Manchester, it is effectively a suburb of Manchester. Plenty of youngsters there will not even contemplate following Bury, there is not the glamour, the offering is poor in comparison and it will only be 20 minutes or so on the bus or tram into Manchester.

In answer to your question, yes they would rather pay for Sky / BT or watch games in the pub than pay to watch Bury.

Wolf gave the example of Lincoln and it sounds great what they are doing. They are not competing with two of the biggest teams in the country for fans though. Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Bolton, Stockport, are always going to struggle to get decent gates because of their proximity to Manchester. Bolton did well for a spell but that could not last forever, it didn't, and even then they were building up debt.

 

[Marshy77]

Unfortunately Bury gambled

And also a little sad that, bar one so far, you thinks it's Bury's own fault.

It is mainly Bury's owners fault though. They know they will get very little tv coverage and live games, they signed a shed load of players at the beginning of the year they got relegated and totally gambled on getting promotion instead of relegation. They paid over the odds on wages too which is the owners fault. The money doesn't filter down, I know this being a Bradford fan. A conversation this morning with a work colleague and we both said that this could have been us. The situation is frightenly similar but our main chairman stuck with it, got rid of the loon that was killing us, put money back in and took full control of the club.

 

[Slab]

Bury is in Greater Manchester, it is effectively a suburb of Manchester. Plenty of youngsters there will not even contemplate following Bury, there is not the glamour, the offering is poor in comparison and it will only be 20 minutes or so on the bus or tram into Manchester.

In answer to your question, yes they would rather pay for Sky / BT or watch games in the pub than pay to watch Bury.

Shame really (same problem with towns in Greater Glasgow with much smaller populations than Bury and comparable attendances for the small teams)

But by what you say its not a new problem that should mean Bury are suddenly up poo creek because of something different happening to their catchment in the last year or two, so it does seem like mismanagement of the business by those in control

@Crazyface Thoughts? It seems attendances are trending slightly up over the last 6 years or so but last year they're unable to pay tax, wages etc
Would seem to suggest their costs have grown but not in line with modest increase in income... who to blame

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Slab, You have hit the nail on the head, so has Marshy in his previous post. Bury have been living with small crowds for years, it comes with the territory there, but for whatever reason the Bury owners decided to gamble big and it has bit them.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Perhaps the club should allow the fans to enter for £1, and be given a free lunch as well. That’s how golf clubs should run opens isn’t it?

Bury’s problems are their own.