Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[harpo_72]

Mmm, what started out between us as a discussion on tariffs has become a discussion on playing poker, stopping commitments to the welfare state/NHS and criminals investing in London. The UK will become Sodom and Gomorrah - really? A bit of a hysterical imagination? You missed out the unicorns bit.

You failed to acknowledge the potential reciprocity of tariff impositions to balance trade. You failed to acknowledge what can be done by changing Corporate Tax, even though Ireland has very clearly shown what can be done - criminals haven't flocked there by the way. And as for no one will want to operate in a country of lower taxation... oh please, at least acknowledge that businesses do want to reduce their costs, and taxation is a no benefits cost.

Life is good, and I like the status quo. I don't want change, or Brexit, but at least I acknowledge there is another way that doesn't include the hysteria some Remainers seem to be infected with.

Perhaps it went too far and it should have been small steps .. but the key to trade is having something other people want. We have nothing of note we are consumers ... there lies the issue.

 

[drdel]

Perhaps it went too far and it should have been small steps .. but the key to trade is having something other people want. We have nothing of note we are consumers ... there lies the issue.

That's just unbelievably silly when the UK is one of the world's largest economies. IMO you have just joined those remainers who simply justify their choice by rubbishing the capabilities of their own country to stand on it's own two feet

The UK is a strong country with excellent businesses and capable people and I hate to tell you but armegeddon will not happen.

 

[Hobbit]

That's just unbelievably silly when the UK is one of the world's largest economies. IMO you have just joined those remainers who simply justify their choice by rubbishing the capabilities of their own country to stand on it's own two feet

The UK is a strong country with excellent businesses and capable people and I hate to tell you but armegeddon will not happen.

Amazing isn't it. The UK has exports to the value of over £400 BILLION and, apparently, we have nothing of value that anyone wants. I wonder how much they would want if it was tariff free? Obviously nothing as the UK has nothing of note...

 

[harpo_72]

That's just unbelievably silly when the UK is one of the world's largest economies. IMO you have just joined those remainers who simply justify their choice by rubbishing the capabilities of their own country to stand on it's own two feet

The UK is a strong country with excellent businesses and capable people and I hate to tell you but armegeddon will not happen.

Go on name it .. bet it isn’t 100% out of the UK, oh and isn’t our economy 70 something % banking services? So less than 30% of whatever else.
Come on, wake up the bankers have got a plan, if we don’t keep passporting they will be taking residence in Europe.

This is not down playing the uk, this is reality, this is looking at in the cold light of day and saying how it is .. this is not project fear, this is a challenge to you, show us the truth behind your quoted fingers.. show us the 100% home products we can base an economy on.

Will the next response be derogatory? Highly likely several have been so far, so resist the temptation rise to the challenge and give it a good response.

 

[ColchesterFC]

How about Welsh lamb, Scottish whiskey and fish? There's three things that spring to mind instantly and I'm sure that there are many more if you Google it.

And at the minute under EU law a sheep could be raised anywhere in Europe and sold as Welsh lamb as long as it was transported to Wales to be killed. The same goes for other meat products as well. A cow raised anywhere can be sold with a Union Jack flag on it as long as it is slaughtered here.

 

[SocketRocket]

I accept it’s happening now, we are used to it, but as you state at the very end we suffer but for an unknown length of time ... we as a nation have not prepared, we don’t have the most wanted commodity whether that be a raw material or a technology. So ultimately we are gambling, playing poker with a pretty poor hand .. it’s stronger than others but it isn’t a winner.
If I offered you the opportunity to kill off the welfare state, nhs, and all pension commitements private and public sector ... you would be wealthier because take home pay would be greater, would you take that risk.. the risk of being ill and not being able to afford the hospital bills, the risk of poverty with no support? Just because there is perceived opportunity of great wealth?
May’s deal is rubbish ... but no deal is too big of a risk .. remain, partake and take ownership by forcing the Spanish to clean their beaches and factories up.. or whatever floats your boat, but accept life is good as is, there has been a pretty good balance in Europe for 50 years.
Turn the uk to tax haven .. really ? Who will come ? What other sell out options will there be ? Sovereignty will be meaningless when we all work for rich multinationals who will switch the lights off when it suits them.
Before you know it the criminals will be investing ( London is pretty rife already) any morals we had will slip down the plug hole we will be chasing money at the expense of our fellow man/ woman ..

It's difficult to hold a reasonable debate with someone who escalates his journey towards apocalypse in each post with a closed mindset.

 

[Fade and Die]

Go on name it .. bet it isn’t 100% out of the UK, oh and isn’t our economy 70 something % banking services? So less than 30% of whatever else.
Come on, wake up the bankers have got a plan, if we don’t keep passporting they will be taking residence in Europe.

This is not down playing the uk, this is reality, this is looking at in the cold light of day and saying how it is .. this is not project fear, this is a challenge to you, show us the truth behind your quoted fingers.. show us the 100% home products we can base an economy on.

Will the next response be derogatory? Highly likely several have been so far, so resist the temptation rise to the challenge and give it a good response.

I love reading a good rant! 😂😂

(Maybe just close the curtains and have a lie down eh?)😐

 

[Hobbit]

Perhaps it went too far and it should have been small steps .. but the key to trade is having something other people want. We have nothing of note we are consumers ... there lies the issue.

£400 Billion of exports and you say the UK has nothing the rest of the world wants. You are talking rubbish, complete and utter rubbish.

Go on name it .. bet it isn’t 100% out of the UK, oh and isn’t our economy 70 something % banking services? So less than 30% of whatever else.
Come on, wake up the bankers have got a plan, if we don’t keep passporting they will be taking residence in Europe.

This is not down playing the uk, this is reality, this is looking at in the cold light of day and saying how it is .. this is not project fear, this is a challenge to you, show us the truth behind your quoted fingers.. show us the 100% home products we can base an economy on.

Will the next response be derogatory? Highly likely several have been so far, so resist the temptation rise to the challenge and give it a good response.

"Our economy 70 something % banking services." REALLY!

From April 2017 to April 2018; banking services contributed a £119bn to the UK economy as a whole, which is 6.5% of UK output. In terms of exports, banking services contributed £61bn of the UK's total global output of £2,100bn.

"70 something %"

 

[MegaSteve]

Looking ever more likely we'll be having a second 'once in a generation ' vote...

 

[harpo_72]

£400 Billion of exports and you say the UK has nothing the rest of the world wants. You are talking rubbish, complete and utter rubbish.



"Our economy 70 something % banking services." REALLY!

From April 2017 to April 2018; banking services contributed a £119bn to the UK economy as a whole, which is 6.5% of UK output. In terms of exports, banking services contributed £61bn of the UK's total global output of £2,100bn.

"70 something %"

Manufacturing and production contribute less than 21% of the GDP, and agriculture contributes less than 0.60%.


According to the U.K. Office for National Statistics (ONS), the services sector is the largest sector in the U.K., accounting for more than three-quarters of the GDP. The service industry in the U.K. comprises many industries, including finance and business services, consumer-focused industries, such as retail, food and beverage, and entertainment.

That is the build of the UK economy ... compare it to the top 4 .. oh and a link as well golly gosh.
The service sector will be importing and their costs will rise ... thanks for making a good meal and a glass more expensive and we will see a reduction in those services contribution to the GDP.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

How about Welsh lamb, Scottish whiskey and fish? There's three things that spring to mind instantly and I'm sure that there are many more if you Google it.

And at the minute under EU law a sheep could be raised anywhere in Europe and sold as Welsh lamb as long as it was transported to Wales to be killed. The same goes for other meat products as well. A cow raised anywhere can be sold with a Union Jack flag on it as long as it is slaughtered here.

You will have to wait until after we leave the EU before you can buy any Scotch WhiskEy from America/China/Nigeria etc.
Scotland [the brand] being vandalised by the British Westminster Tories yet again.

 

[ColchesterFC]

You will have to wait until after we leave the EU before you can buy any Scotch WhiskEy from America/China/Nigeria etc.
Scotland [the brand] being vandalised by the British Westminster Tories yet again.

Autocorrect gave me the option of "whiskey" or "whisky" and I can never remember which is the right one, so I guessed. Badly as it turns out.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Autocorrect gave me the option of "whiskey" or "whisky" and I can never remember which is the right one, so I guessed. Badly as it turns out.

If it's from Eire, it's got an e is the easy way to remember it. Not 100% accurate as NI also has an e but you get the idea. No e in Scotland would be the other way I suppose.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Autocorrect gave me the option of "whiskey" or "whisky" and I can never remember which is the right one, so I guessed. Badly as it turns out.

Easy way to remember is....
Irish [and any other inferior products] are spelt with an e.
The good stuff does not have an e.

 

[Foxholer]

Easy way to remember is....
Irish [and any other inferior products] are spelt with an e.
The good stuff does not have an e.

H'mm! The Irish actually added the 'e' to distinguish their superior product from the rubbish that was being produced/exported by Scotland! - at the time! The Scots sorted themselves out and it's their product that dominates these days.

Plenty of examples of 'good stuff' Irish to be had - and probably more in the future, as it's been making a comeback after a long decline from its peak.

As BiM implied in his post, best way to remember...there's no 'e' in Scotland or their product; there's an 'e' in Ireland and their's.

 

[Mudball]

Well no need to debate which is better or worse with and without an ‘e’.. I am a Japanese dram guy.. The Hibiki trumps any of the Glens while Santory and Chitas have plenty to push over the blended stuff.

It is a good example of how the world can change its choices and markets move away. Sure you can argue the Scottish and Irish will win the volume whiskey game, but right now the Japs have some of the best dram

Btw nothing to do with Brexit or maybe we will have trade deal with Japan where we buy their drink and bottle it in Scotland and call it Scotch!!!

 

[SocketRocket]

Manufacturing and production contribute less than 21% of the GDP, and agriculture contributes less than 0.60%.


According to the U.K. Office for National Statistics (ONS), the services sector is the largest sector in the U.K., accounting for more than three-quarters of the GDP. The service industry in the U.K. comprises many industries, including finance and business services, consumer-focused industries, such as retail, food and beverage, and entertainment.

That is the build of the UK economy ... compare it to the top 4 .. oh and a link as well golly gosh.
The service sector will be importing and their costs will rise ... thanks for making a good meal and a glass more expensive and we will see a reduction in those services contribution to the GDP.

I am not sure if you are deliberately trying to paint a false picture of the service industry or if you are genuinely ignorant of the way it works.

The Service Sector in the UK covers a number of different areas from the Motor Trade to Technology. Financial and insurance activities can be attributed to 9.2% of the Service Sector and 6.5% of UK output, so suggesting any reduction would bring the UK to it's knees is Gilding the Lilly. Also of that 9.2% no one is suggesting that a large swathe of it would leave the UK (well that's not including you and SILH)

 

[drdel]

Go on name it .. bet it isn’t 100% out of the UK, oh and isn’t our economy 70 something % banking services? So less than 30% of whatever else.
Come on, wake up the bankers have got a plan, if we don’t keep passporting they will be taking residence in Europe.

This is not down playing the uk, this is reality, this is looking at in the cold light of day and saying how it is .. this is not project fear, this is a challenge to you, show us the truth behind your quoted fingers.. show us the 100% home products we can base an economy on.

Will the next response be derogatory? Highly likely several have been so far, so resist the temptation rise to the challenge and give it a good response.

We can trade 'selected' and out-of-context numbers all day but what's the point? in any case other poster have had a go and you still won't budge.

You have your reasons for supporting the EU as I do for taking an opposite view. e.g.

For me I dislike intensely the direction in which the EU's unelected strategy/policy is taking the member states ever more towards central 'Treasury' , Defence and an EU supernation.
I dislike their high-handed disingenuous treatment of Greece (I don't support the Greek's economic behaviour but the EU lied to the IMFand treated their debt restructuring with contempt); to the advantage of the German economy and ECB.
The EU's trade controls are out-of-date and fail to recognise the world has moved on since the 1980s.
Growth is stagnating in northern Europe, other nation's are moving faster.
The EU's spending is growing faster and is not controlled by the elected members' representative, it would present a huge future burden to the UK as one of the very few net contributors.
Security control and data sharing among the EU and the members is lax posing a danger to the UK military, police etc.
Immigration is not managed, most members are happy for migrants, legal or otherwise to be given 'easy' passage to the UK.
Jobs for the 'top' are handed out to the selected few who are supporters of 'career' centralists aspiration.

I'm afraid I personally cannot see why any thinking person in the UK would prefer to be run by these unelected idiots who sit beyond our (UK public's) reach.

 

[Hobbit]

Manufacturing and production contribute less than 21% of the GDP, and agriculture contributes less than 0.60%.


According to the U.K. Office for National Statistics (ONS), the services sector is the largest sector in the U.K., accounting for more than three-quarters of the GDP. The service industry in the U.K. comprises many industries, including finance and business services, consumer-focused industries, such as retail, food and beverage, and entertainment.

That is the build of the UK economy ... compare it to the top 4 .. oh and a link as well golly gosh.
The service sector will be importing and their costs will rise ... thanks for making a good meal and a glass more expensive and we will see a reduction in those services contribution to the GDP.

And for the third time you still haven't acknowledged that the UK exports £400bn worth of goods. Remember your throwaway line of the UK has nowt to offer in the global market. Still avoiding it? You still haven't acknowledged what a difference the UK could make by changing/dropping tariffs and quotas nor what a reduction in corporation tax will do... but the streets of London will be lawless

I wonder why the Spanish train manufacturer has recently announced it will be opening a factory in Fife, or that Siemens has announced it will extend its facility in Hull to the tune of £10m? Oh that's right, because the UK would be stupid place to invest....

 

[Foxholer]

We can trade 'selected' and out-of-context numbers all day but what's the point? in any case other poster have had a go and you still won't budge.

You have your reasons for supporting the EU as I do for taking an opposite view. e.g.

For me I dislike intensely the direction in which the EU's unelected strategy/policy is taking the member states ever more towards central 'Treasury' , Defence and an EU supernation.
I dislike their high-handed disingenuous treatment of Greece (I don't support the Greek's economic behaviour but the EU lied to the IMFand treated their debt restructuring with contempt); to the advantage of the German economy and ECB.
The EU's trade controls are out-of-date and fail to recognise the world has moved on since the 1980s.
Growth is stagnating in northern Europe, other nation's are moving faster.
The EU's spending is growing faster and is not controlled by the elected members' representative, it would present a huge future burden to the UK as one of the very few net contributors.
Security control and data sharing among the EU and the members is lax posing a danger to the UK military, police etc.
Immigration is not managed, most members are happy for migrants, legal or otherwise to be given 'easy' passage to the UK.
Jobs for the 'top' are handed out to the selected few who are supporters of 'career' centralists aspiration.

I'm afraid I personally cannot see why any thinking person in the UK would prefer to be run by these unelected idiots who sit beyond our (UK public's) reach.

While I respect your arguments, I do wish that, especially as (apparently) an unelected bureaucrat yourself, you'd stop referring to the EU equivalents as simply unelected! The process by which key EU personnel are appointed is actually, imo, more 'democratic' than the likes of UK Public Servants are appointed! It's simply a 'different' type of democracy!

To reply to your points - from a marginal Remain voter who has moved to be a marginal to serious Leave one....

For me I dislike intensely the direction in which the EU's unelected strategy/policy is taking the member states ever more towards central 'Treasury' , Defence and an EU supernation.

'Centralisation' or even marginal 'Federalisation' seems reasonable to me in certain areas, but only up to a certain point! I'm not happy about plans for an EU Army...it's not necessary!

I dislike their high-handed disingenuous treatment of Greece (I don't support the Greek's economic behaviour but the EU lied to the IMFand treated their debt restructuring with contempt); to the advantage of the German economy and ECB.

Greece was (is?) a basket case that should have been sorted significantly earlier! It's a BIG problem, but seems to be being handled reasonably well/diplomatically - which includes innuendos, half-truths and outright lies that 'diplomacy' is all about!

The EU's trade controls are out-of-date and fail to recognise the world has moved on since the 1980s.

Not something I can really comment on, but they seem to have served UK fairly well!

Growth is stagnating in northern Europe, other nation's are moving faster.

Economies constantly fluctuate relative to each other..that's the nature of economies!

The EU's spending is growing faster and is not controlled by the elected members' representative, it would present a huge future burden to the UK as one of the very few net contributors.

Twaddle!!! But I concur with your concerns.

Security control and data sharing among the EU and the members is lax posing a danger to the UK military, police etc.

Examples required! There is likely no more (or less!) likelihood for security/data sharing breaches across EU than within UK - which is neither a comfort, nor something to really be obsessed about imo.

Immigration is not managed, most members are happy for migrants, legal or otherwise to be given 'easy' passage to the UK.

Illegal Immigration into EU, therefore potentially UK, is a huge problem! UK is not the worst affected! Immigration within the EU IS managed, if not necessarily as some would like!

Jobs for the 'top' are handed out to the selected few who are supporters of 'career' centralists aspiration.

Can't really comment, but I expect the same approach applies in every appointment anywhere (including yours) - appointers are looking for candidates likely to have the 'desired' approach wanted for the particular role.

I'm afraid I personally cannot see why any thinking person in the UK would prefer to be run by these unelected idiots who sit beyond our (UK public's) reach.

That'll be insulting to the 48% (now minus me) who voted Remain then! And to your fellow (or maybe superior!) bureaucrats! Both unworthy of you imo!

Btw. This item is worth reading to dispel some of the 'unelected' hysteria! https://www.economist.com/the-econo...efer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats