Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

They all had the chance when Cameron stepped down - but they didn’t step up to the plate , the main guys in the Leave campaign when the time came showed zero bottle and backbone and hid away in the shadows. They all talked a good game , lots of noise from an empty vessel but when it was a chance to stand up and follow through - they bottled it and showed no backbone.

At least May stood up to be counted and has tried to do what she thinks is best for the country - all those pointing fingers at her in the cabinet and commons didn’t have the bottle.

If the deal isn’t good enough for them - well tough it’s their own fault for not being there to do the deal themselves.

The lot of them are spineless - the guy who was in charge of negotiating walks away because he didn’t like what he negotiated- do a better job then

People expected this to be easy , expected a clean break away - the reality is far from it , the UK is that ingrained in the EU it was always going to be messy but far too many didn’t care just because they could blurt out “Leave means Leave”

The vote was “ Leave yes or no” - there was no specifics , there was no “deal or no deal” - it was leave the EU and if this deal means we leave the EU then the vote is satisfied , if it’s not how people wanted to leave - tough deal with it because there was no deal on how we were leaving the EU when the vote started , idiots like Johnson didn’t have the foresight to actually have a plan in place - far too busy parading around on a bus.

The vote was to leave the EU period. Not leave bits of it or remain in bits of it, LEAVE THE EU MEANS LEAVE IT. Johnson, Gove and others did stand for the leadership but didnt get it.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The vote was to leave the EU period. Not leave bits of it or remain in bits of it, LEAVE THE EU MEANS LEAVE IT. Johnson, Gove and others did stand for the leadership but didnt get it.

Thank you for proving my point perfectly

And Johnson didn’t stand he went and hid away But would “support” then new leader - https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-will-not-stand-for-tory-leader-he-announces-a7110921.html?amp

The man is a disgraceful snake.

Am I right in thinking you don’t work anymore ? Or have I got that wrong

 

[ChipIntoBunker]

On 5 Live earlier this afternoon one of the justice ministers on the radio (can't remember his name)...and I'm paraphrasing...

Him : 80% of the public support Mrs May's deal.

Interviewer: Is that a fact ?

Him : I used that figure to illustrate my opinion.

Interviewer: What is the source of that statistic ?

Him: I unreservedly withdraw that statement.

 

[Imurg]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sing-dover-port-raises-fears-of-brexit-delays

This just has to be untruthful........
As others have said, a pile-up on the M4 and the whole Honda factory grinds to a halt!! I think not.
And what about the blockades by the French in recent times....Operation Stack on this side of the Channel - they'll have their own version over there....some lorries were stuck for days..
Don't recall hearing about Honda shutting down...

But people will believe this garbage.....

 

[Foxholer]

...

The UK will not be able to do any trade negotiations with any organisations during the the transition period but can do them with individual countries. So that's the invite to join the Australasia trading bloc put back.

A longer (or maybe shorter!) process, but effectively the same thing! So no biggee imo!

...
The UK will not ever be able to set tariffs with 3rd countries lower than those set by the EU. That's the competitive edge lost. Vassal state.

This needs to be changed to be 'during the transition period'! Otherwise it's a deal-breaker - as 'never' is a deal-breaker imo! Though WTO rules quite possibly prevent such things happening anyway!

...
As for the Irish border solution, i.e. tying all of the UK to the customs union so as there's no hard border with an indefinite term and no right to withdraw unilaterally. All the EU has to say is no, and the UK is tied to the EU forever. And that would be on vastly poorer terms than we have as a member state.

Likewise 'indefinite term' and 'no right to withdraw unilaterally' means UK would still be subservient to EU control - a deal-breaker imo!

...
Either May, as a Remainer, wants to stay in the EU by the back door or she wants the deal to fail, and for the nation to vote again.

Doesn't seem a very satisfactory 'leaving' deal to me either!

 

[SocketRocket]

Thank you for proving my point perfectly

And Johnson didn’t stand he went and hid away But would “support” then new leader - https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-will-not-stand-for-tory-leader-he-announces-a7110921.html?amp

The man is a disgraceful snake.

Am I right in thinking you don’t work anymore ? Or have I got that wrong

What has it to do with you whether I work or not.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

What has it to do with you whether I work or not.

Just a question that’s all - I know a lot of people who are being affected by everything that is going on , losing deals , jobs going etc and it’s not getting better. But the people that no longer work won’t see or feel that affect and I suspect it won’t bother them - especially when they blurt out “Leave Means Leave”. There are a lot of people that have their livelihoods resting on potential deals with the EU , I suspect it’s a hell of a lot of people desperate for a deal that means their job is safe.

Fears about jobs etc are always dismissed by people like yourself as “project fear” etc so I suspect you are either don’t work ( so don’t care ) or in a job that doesn’t need a relationship with the EU.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The vote was to leave the EU period. Not leave bits of it or remain in bits of it, LEAVE THE EU MEANS LEAVE IT. Johnson, Gove and others did stand for the leadership but didnt get it.

The agreement May has reached means that the UK will be leaving the EU. It means lot of other stuff also - but with nothing more on the ballot paper other than Remain In or Leave the EU. Well. She can claim that she is delivering the will of the people. Guess we will all have to get used to that idea.

 

[Foxholer]

Gove and Johnson both stood for leader but neither got the number of MP's backing them that they required. Boris pulled out because his team told him the maths did not add up, Gove stayed and was humiliated. They both stood up but the MP's, not the electorate, knocked them back.

I wouldn't vote for either of them but it is not correct to say they did not stand up.

Er... Johnson didn't stand. Gove 'shafted' him!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This just has to be untruthful........
As others have said, a pile-up on the M4 and the whole Honda factory grinds to a halt!! I think not.
And what about the blockades by the French in recent times....Operation Stack on this side of the Channel - they'll have their own version over there....some lorries were stuck for days..
Don't recall hearing about Honda shutting down...

But people will believe this garbage.....

If you choose to not believe it then that is your prerogative - but to suggest it is untruthful suggests you know why it is so. So evidence that the statement is untruthful please.

As it happens the statement rather supports the views of the bosses of many major UK car manufacturers in respect of the JiT nature of supplies for their production lines. Of course you may believe that they are being untruthful also.

 

[Old Skier]

The agreement May has reached means that the UK will be leaving the EU.

No it doesn't or if you have better info let us have the date. Or are you on about leaving some of the EU.

 

[Old Skier]

What has it to do with you whether I work or not.

Looks like retired people shouldn't be able to vote.

 

[Foxholer]

Well I've tried to follow this most of the day and didn't hear any of this. If only the politicians could come out and explain it as well as this then we wouldn't be in the bluddy dark all the time.

They are the last folk who should be 'explaining' it! They'll simply taint it with their individual beliefs!

This is where a truly independent Press should step up - providing independent, balanced explanation/criticism of all aspects of 'the deal'. Time for the Beeb to step up and show the (highlighted above) traits!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just a question that’s all - I know a lot of people who are being affected by everything that is going on , losing deals , jobs going etc and it’s not getting better. But the people that no longer work won’t see or feel that affect and I suspect it won’t bother them - especially when they blurt out “Leave Means Leave”. There are a lot of people that have their livelihoods resting on potential deals with the EU , I suspect it’s a hell of a lot of people desperate for a deal that means their job is safe.

Fears about jobs etc are always dismissed by people like yourself as “project fear” etc so I suspect you are either don’t work ( so don’t care ) or in a job that doesn’t need a relationship with the EU.

Good on you - tell it how it is. Has to be said as there seems to be a massive amount of denial (a lot of it self-serving) going on at the moment, and a lot of attempts today by leading Brexit proponents to pull the wool over Leave voters eyes - to pretend that where we are today with the Withdrawal Agreement need not have been so - if only we'd done or not done X, Y and Z or listened to someone else...

And I believe May when she says that what she has got agreed is a good as it could be - because given the red lines she was forced to set out (forced by the right wing press never mind the Brexit fanatics) - there was simply nowhere else for her to go - no better deal to be done.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No it doesn't or if you have better info let us have the date. Or are you on about leaving some of the EU.

As Article 50 days - come 29th March we will be leaving the EU and all it's associated institutions.

What has had to be agreed in respect of the EU/NI border subsequent to us leaving, and for there to be a transition agreement in place, are subsequent to the UK leaving the EU, And at the moment - as the Bill has gone through parliament - the UK will be leaving the EU on 29th March.

What May has agreed does not cancel that Bill and in many if not most aspects fulfils what Leave voters are thought to want out of leaving. because we don't actually and factually know in detail what what was wanted further to leaving.

 

[ger147]

The agreement May has reached means that the UK will be leaving the EU. It means lot of other stuff also - but with nothing more on the ballot paper other than Remain In or Leave the EU. Well. She can claim that she is delivering the will of the people. Guess we will all have to get used to that idea.

The deal May has reached is irrelevant as it will NOT be passed by the HoC's and so as a country, the UK will be back to Square 1 when the deal gets voted down by MP's.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

They are the last folk who should be 'explaining' it! They'll simply taint it with their individual beliefs!

This is where a truly independent Press should step up - providing independent, balanced explanation/criticism of all aspects of 'the deal'. Time for the Beeb to step up and show the (highlighted above) traits!

Well - if some folks had taken a bit of time out to listening to James O'Brien on LBC they would have heard predicted precisely what has come about and why. And his programme is not an echo chamber - he get's a lot of calls from people vehemently opposing his views. He just gently, and sometimes not so gently, asks them to substantiate what they claim - to back up and logically step through their reasoning. And 99 times out of 100 they can't and their arguments just fail. And why? Because in the main they base their arguments and rationale on what they have read or listened to for the last 30yrs from the right wing / anti-EU press - and more recently to the charlatans who lead the Leave campaign.

None of the mess we are in today is a surprise to me. But I have no idea 'what next'

 

[Imurg]

If you choose to not believe it then that is your prerogative - but to suggest it is untruthful suggests you know why it is so. So evidence that the statement is untruthful please.

As it happens the statement rather supports the views of the bosses of many major UK car manufacturers in respect of the JiT nature of supplies for their production lines. Of course you may believe that they are being untruthful also.

Read the post...it's all in there.
I was going to spell it out in words of one syllable but, do you know what....I really can't be bothered because you're not going to believe it...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The deal May has reached is irrelevant as it will NOT be passed by the HoC's and so as a country, the UK will be back to Square 1 when the deal gets voted down by MP's.

Then what...? In every interview I have heard today of a Tory MP who has written a letter to the Chief Whip or will vote against the agreement, when asked - what next? Silence or dissembling. That's what you get. Nothing. Because they haven't a clue how to get the UK out of this mess either.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Read the post...it's all in there.
I was going to spell it out in words of one syllable but, do you know what....I really can't be bothered because you're not going to believe it...

I am sorry but what you posted...

As others have said, a pile-up on the M4 and the whole Honda factory grinds to a halt!! I think not.
And what about the blockades by the French in recent times....Operation Stack on this side of the Channel - they'll have their own version over there....some lorries were stuck for days..
Don't recall hearing about Honda shutting down..

...is all in respect of very short term and temporary disruptions to JiT delivery. What we are talking about with Dover-Calais is not simply few hours or days delay - a 'temporary' disruption that the manufacturers can plan for. We are talking major disruption with the motorway system of the SE England completely clogged up. And that's what the government are trying to plan to mitigate.