Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
For me the situation today is quite simple. If others had made a decision that you were virtually certain would have an outcome that would be harmful and damaging to the future of your loved ones - would you sit back and accept it; would you sit back and let that harm and damage to your loved ones happen - or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.
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Well put!

I'd be doing all I could to mitigate any negative effects while maximising any benefits!

It was depressing to see how much of the Referendum campaign consisted of blatant B/S - by both sides, but far more effectively be Leave!

I can't see the point of a referendum on 'the final deal'. That, imo, is something for Parliament to decide.
 
bobmac said:
Over the last 2 years, how successful do you think you have been in preventing or at least reducing the anticipated damage?
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What does it matter how successful I have been - what has that got to do with it? I have Emailed mt MP quite a few times - the last time asking him to be honest with the electorate about a No Deal and encouraging him - as Foreign Secretary and therefore being a senior cabinet minister - to encourage May to be honest. And the last few statements I have been hearing from him have actually been words of caution and concern over No Deal and so maybe he has read my words and they have caused him to reflect. Unlikely I suspect - but who knows.

Whether of not he listens and is not the point - I will continue to call out the lies and disinformation over Leaving and continue to highlight whenever I read or head worries ver leaving and especially over No Deal.

Meanwhile many leave votes it seems would prefer to simply ignore all the warnings and concerns - because - it seems - they simply want to get what they voted for - and the rest of us can just go to blazes.

And so today I am reminded today of the NI issue. And that the border and trade is in many ways the least of it. Because the Good Friday agreement was underpinned by the European Courts of Justine and European convention on Human Rights - because the catholic population required that honest brokerage - a judge and an even hand that was not always apparent in Westminster. And that Westminster body is now clearly aligned with the protestant side - through DUP bribes. And so the catholic population look to the ECJ as the only honest broker left - and Leavers will have the UK dumping that. And that way could well i time take us back to the bad days - because there will be very little to stop that happening - it is where NI came from before the Good Friday Agreement and the place of the ECJ in that agreement.

But hey - Remain lost - suck it up.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
And so today I am reminded today of the NI issue. And that the border and trade is in many ways the least of it. Because the Good Friday agreement was underpinned by the European Courts of Justine and European convention on Human Rights - because the catholic population required that honest brokerage - a judge and an even hand that was not always apparent in Westminster. And that Westminster body is now clearly aligned with the protestant side - through DUP bribes. And so the catholic population look to the ECJ as the only honest broker left - and Leavers will have the UK dumping that. And that way could well i time take us back to the bad days - because there will be very little to stop that happening - it is where NI came from before the Good Friday Agreement and the place of the ECJ in that agreement.
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I can't find any articles re the Catholics and the ECJ. I have read that an agreement has been reached between the Irish Prime Minister and the UK. However, Barnier says it hasn't reached an agreement. The UK govt have been saying that they will honour the Good Friday Agreement and the EU have said they can't do that unless NI stays in the Customs Union. Sounds like its the EU setting barriers, not the UK.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Whether of not he listens and is not the point - I will continue to call out the lies and disinformation over Leaving
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Even though I know you never respond when questioned on your hypercritical one side unbalanced view on the subject I'll try again.

Do you continue to call out the lies and disinformation that comes from the remain side.
 
Old Skier said:
Even though I know you never respond when questioned on your hypercritical one side unbalanced view on the subject I'll try again.

Do you continue to call out the lies and disinformation that comes from the remain side.
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yes I can call them out - though you cannot lie about a prediction whereas you can lie about a fact. The £350m was a factual lie. Saying that Turkey was about to join the EU was a factual lie. Saying that you'd be in Berlin the day after a Leave vote to talk trade deals was a lie. A prediction of the need for an emergency budget and predictions in respect of employment etc were exaggerated predictions - they were not lies. Everybody understands that predictions have associated uncertainty - and can be exaggerated and can be wrong. Everybody also knows what a fact is; and that if you deliberately misrepresent a fact then you are lying.

But in truth what matters now is holding the government and lead Leavers to account on the lies that were perpetrated by the 'winning' side, as well as asking them to explain their predictions on how easy leaving would be - so on and so forth.

And so we find the 'great future for the UK' has evolved from there through 'it shouldn't be worse than our current situation' to what a poll for LBC found yesterday:

The survey for LBC by Deltapoll shows that 70% of leavers are happy to leave the EU even if it means longer queues at ports and airports border control. And more than want to leave even if it means the cost of food rises significantly (54%) or the UK goes in to recession (51%).

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...teers-happy-for-uk-to-go-into-recession-poll/

And what do I think on such views? I think they are stupid, insane. To actually be happy that all of that might happen is madness - and for what? For some notion of regaining our sovereignty when the Brexit White Paper was clear that UK had never lost it's sovereignty.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...endum-campaign-brussels-article-a7559556.html

John McCain's daughter got it right on America's version of this in her eulogy to her father - her repost to Trump's MAGA

“The America of John McCain has no need to be made great again because America was always great"

As the White Paper got it right for the UK. And yet the majority of Leave voters polled would happily have us in recession. Ye gods.
 
That is what I do not understand about the 'we want our country back/UKIP/Tory activists'.
They actually seem happy to cause decades of financial hardship and uncertainty to every single family in the UK.
But for what reason/outcome ?

If any WWOCB/UKIP/Tory supporters on here can give me a sensible answer the that I would be obliged.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
The survey for LBC by Deltapoll shows that 70% of leavers are happy to leave the EU even IF It means longer queues at ports and airports border control. And more than want to leave even IF it means the cost of food rises significantly (54%) or the UK goes in to recession (51%).
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I would be happy to vote remain IF it makes me a millionaire
What a lovely word........ IF
 
Doon frae Troon said:
That is what I do not understand about the 'we want our country back/UKIP/Tory activists'.
They actually seem happy to cause decades of financial hardship and uncertainty to every single family in the UK.
But for what reason/outcome ?

If any WWOCB/UKIP/Tory supporters on here can give me a sensible answer the that I would be obliged.
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I would suggest 40+ years of being in the EU has all but wiped out our 'middle class'...
Leaving an even wider gap between the haves and have nots...
And that, more than any other reason, is why our economy is 'struggling'...
Really can't understand why folk still believe our membership has in any way been good for 'regular' people...

And, have you seen all the footage of the absolute far right/fascists marching in Germany...
Do you still feel we should be hanging onto their apron strings?
 
Doon frae Troon said:
That is what I do not understand about the 'we want our country back/UKIP/Tory activists'.
They actually seem happy to cause decades of financial hardship and uncertainty to every single family in the UK.
But for what reason/outcome ?

If any WWOCB/UKIP/Tory supporters on here can give me a sensible answer the that I would be obliged.
Click to expand...

You might as well ask how many Leave voters actually voted for a No Deal. It may well be that some Leave Leaders were telling us before the vote that No Deal was better than a Bad Deal, and that if we could not get a good deal we'd leave on the basis of No Deal and then explained what that actually would mean - but I don't recall such being said - and if they did it wasn't very loudly said.

Remain Leaders certainly warned about how 'negotiations' would go - with the EU sticking very much to it's rules and principles - but of course these were all dismissed as Project Fear and so to be ignored as irrelevant and misleading.
 
They don't / aren't capable of giving answers. We won you lost seems to be about it.My last post raised a few questions/points and answers came their none. Here it is again:

I'm sorry but when the narrow majority voted to leave things were very different. There was the £350mn/week Brexit dividend that has now disappeared. We were told that negotiating an exit would be easy and that trade with the EU wouldn't suffer - nobody mentioned the £40bn divorce bill.. We were told that the rest of the world would be hammering on our door with new trade deals. At the same time, many people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do have been warning about the dangers of no deal or a "hard" Brexit. They are in their multitudes and range from the boss of Airbus, to the Governor of the B of E, to the Chancellor and all we are expected to believe that they are somehow conspirators in "Project Fear". We are told that the EU has been holding back UK exporters from developing their markets - Germany seem to manage spectacularly well. If that wasn't enough we've got Rees- Mogg telling us it might take 50 years to see any benefit. The whole bloody shambles is costing £3bn which could be a lot better spent elsewhere.
The benefits from Brexit are always intangible - taking back control, ridding ourselves of EU shackles. Spare us Minford, but can anyone point out what the benefits of Brexit might be?






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MegaSteve said:
I would suggest 40+ years of being in the EU has all but wiped out our 'middle class'...
Leaving an even wider gap between the haves and have nots...
And that, more than any other reason, is why our economy is 'struggling'...
Really can't understand why folk still believe our membership has in any way been good for 'regular' people...

And, have you seen all the footage of the absolute far right/fascists marching in Germany...
Do you still feel we should be hanging onto their apron strings?
Click to expand...

The Remainers are so busy knocking the UK to see what is going on in the member states.
 
Think I've got it now.

Leavers lie
Remainers just make wrong predictions.

You can't make this up.

Actually if you go by #748 you can.

Any remainers got any idea why the EU has continued to block any talk on trade negotiations similar to Canada, Japan, China etc.
 
MegaSteve said:
I would suggest 40+ years of being in the EU has all but wiped out our 'middle class'...
Leaving an even wider gap between the haves and have nots...
And that, more than any other reason, is why our economy is 'struggling'...
Really can't understand why folk still believe our membership has in any way been good for 'regular' people...
...
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Absolutely nothing to do with UK's membership of the EU imo! You'll be blaming UK's EU membership for every negative world event/situation pretty soon!

Btw. I think you should go back and check what the UK economy was like back in the pre-EEC days!

MegaSteve said:
...
And, have you seen all the footage of the absolute far right/fascists marching in Germany...
Do you still feel we should be hanging onto their apron strings?
Click to expand...

Again, disturbing trend, but totally irrelevant to UK's (or Germany's) EU membership!
 
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drdel said:
The Remainers are so busy knocking the UK to see what is going on in the member states.
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What of anything I post is actually about 'knocking the UK'. It is often said about Remainers that we are anti-UK - when in fact by expressing our concerns and fears for the future of the UK I might suggest that we are more Pro-UK than many Leave voters who seem to care little for the future of the country as long as it is a future out of the EU.
 
Old Skier said:
Think I've got it now.

Leavers lie
Remainers just make wrong predictions.

You can't make this up.

Actually if you go by #748 you can.

Any remainers got any idea why the EU has continued to block any talk on trade negotiations similar to Canada, Japan, China etc.
Click to expand...

Actually maybe it would help things along if the government explained why...if there is anything other than the simple fact of the UK still being in the EU and therefore not permitted to engage in unilateral trade negotiations with these countries. Have they been knocking at our door and we've had to turn them away?
 
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