Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Well, that was [sadly] never likely to happen...

What was (sadly) never likely to happen was the EU bowing 'to a cake-and eat it' approach from the UK - one at odds with all the four principles and rules set out. And those of us with an iota of understanding of the EU knew that the 'easiest deal ever' lie perpetrated by some Leaver leaders was just that - a lie - and we knew that at the outset - and May knew it when she set out her objectives in the Lancaster Hse speech.

May knew that her objectives and red lines were at odds with what the EU would or could simply accept. But she had to perpetrate the illusion that somehow we'd be able to get pretty much all of her objectives without crossing all of her lines lines. Because she knew that the reasons for leaving the EU were so wide and varied that for some voters some of the Red Lines and Objectives were less important. So she set out objectives and stated red lines that she knew would satisfy ALL leave voters. And she knew then as we know now that in the end not all objectives will be fully met, and some red lines might be crossed or tread upon - but only the relatively few hardline leaver EU-sceptics would be bothered about that.

And so let's see what this 'special' deal actually is. I am indeed holding my breath with excitement - though I fear I might faint before we hear of it.

 

[Dellboy]

Special Deal or not I can’t see it getting passed in the House of Commons.

Labour and Wee Jimmy up North have already said they won’t back a deal of any sorts and with up to 40 Tory mp’s saying they won’t back any deal to do with the checkers deal, I feel and hope a no deal is the only outcome.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I despair that you honestly hope for a No Deal...a No Deal will do NOTHING to heal the Leave/Remain rift in the country, and that rift MUST be healed - somehow. That you actually HOPE for a No Deal is indicative of an attitude that says I care not a jot for those who voted to Remain...or indeed about the many and significant risks and impact that a No Deal is predicted to have.

And meanwhile - I assume May will come back from her Tour of Africa with lots of prospective major trade deals - though current headline news out of Africa is of May dancing...

Edit - Ooh - silly me - I didn't notice - 6 trade deals struck with African countries I read. Well that'll be a fine counterbalance to a No Deal with the EU. No worries.

 

[MegaSteve]

What was (sadly) never likely to happen was the EU bowing 'to a cake-and eat it' approach from the UK - .

Didn't expect them to do anything other than adopt the classic 'political classes' stance of prioritising protecting/looking after their own rice bowl...
Would've been a total surprise if they'd put the people they are supposed to be representing first...

Macron being a prime exhibit... First time he rocked up to Brussels his message to his fellow leaders was to go home and tell your people to expect rough times ahead... What happened to any thought of what the flip can we do to resolve this without causing any downsides to any part of Europe...

 

[drdel]

Ooh, it seems the UK might get a special deal afterall. Who would have thought that.

Now, if only Barnier, Junker, May, etc had all been sensible from the off, what might have been achieved.

But I wonder which of his two faces made the statement. In his subsequent words seemed to leave himself wriggle room to say he never meant it !!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Eddie Mair starting with LBC on Monday in the 4pm-6pm slot. I think it will be interesting to see how he deals with Brexit callers as he is not constrained as he was when on Beeb4, he can express his own opinions and will be able to use his sometimes blunt and always forensic interviewing skills to pull apart weak or baseless arguments made by MPs; lead advocates of Leave/Remain; and brave callers.

 

[Old Skier]

Eddie Mair starting with LBC on Monday in the 4pm-6pm slot. I think it will be interesting to see how he deals with Brexit callers as he is not constrained as he was when on Beeb4, he can express his own opinions and will be able to use his sometimes blunt and always forensic interviewing skills to pull apart weak or baseless arguments made by MPs; lead advocates of Leave/Remain; and brave callers.

Does he do the same against Remainers or is he as one sided as you.

 

[Dellboy]

I despair that you honestly hope for a No Deal...a No Deal will do NOTHING to heal the Leave/Remain rift in the country, and that rift MUST be healed - somehow. That you actually HOPE for a No Deal is indicative of an attitude that says I care not a jot for those who voted to Remain...or indeed about the many and significant risks and impact that a No Deal is predicted to have.

And meanwhile - I assume May will come back from her Tour of Africa with lots of prospective major trade deals - though current headline news out of Africa is of May dancing...

Edit - Ooh - silly me - I didn't notice - 6 trade deals struck with African countries I read. Well that'll be a fine counterbalance to a No Deal with the EU. No worries.

I also despair with all the Pro EU / Anti UK LBC guff you come out with.

Why should I accept a watered down deal just to " Heal the rift with the remoaners " we are leaving, as per the wishes of the country, so they need to suck it up and get on board, this is a great country and we will make a success of it, if they / you can't live with that then thats your problem not mine.

A no deal is not the end of the world, plus I would rather keep the £49BN and have a clean break for the EU and start trading again on an even footing with the rest of the world.

I'm getting well fed up of all the talking down of this fine country and all the rubbish coming out of project fear, a vote was had, the result was announced and now lets crack on.

As for May in Africa, I hope she has so much fun over there that she decides to stay then we can get a real Tory PM with a backbone.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I also despair with all the Pro EU / Anti UK LBC guff you come out with.

Why should I accept a watered down deal just to " Heal the rift with the remoaners " we are leaving, as per the wishes of the country, so they need to suck it up and get on board, this is a great country and we will make a success of it, if they / you can't live with that then thats your problem not mine.

A no deal is not the end of the world, plus I would rather keep the £49BN and have a clean break for the EU and start trading again on an even footing with the rest of the world.

I'm getting well fed up of all the talking down of this fine country and all the rubbish coming out of project fear, a vote was had, the result was announced and now lets crack on.

As for May in Africa, I hope she has so much fun over there that she decides to stay then we can get a real Tory PM with a backbone.

Love it - over 16million voters and many who didn't vote 'have to suck it up' - because Leave voters don't actually care that that country is split and hurting badly. Leave won and apparently that's all that matters. Well if you cared as much about your country as leave voters claim to do then you could not imagine that that is appropriate because that way is no way to heal our split society. But perhaps you just really don't care. So sad.

 

[bobmac]

Love it - over 16million voters and many who didn't vote 'have to suck it up' - because Leave voters don't actually care that that country is split and hurting badly. Leave won and apparently that's all that matters. Well if you cared as much about your country as leave voters claim to do then you could not imagine that that is appropriate because that way is no way to heal our split society. But perhaps you just really don't care. So sad.

You must live in another world from me.
The country where I live isn't hurt or split, it's exactly the same as it was 2 years ago.
If you think otherwise, it's you that's doing the damage with your negativity towards those who disagree with you and brexit in general.
Even when there is good news, you always have a 'but'
Why don't you accept that for once in your life you haven't got your own way and you might be wrong.

Instead of seeing and thinking the worst in everything, why not embrace the change and realise there may be a brighter future, free of the EU shackles

We are leaving the EU and whether you like it or not, the VAST MAJORITY of the population don't really give a dam.

 

[Hobbit]

Love it - over 16million voters and many who didn't vote 'have to suck it up' - because Leave voters don't actually care that that country is split and hurting badly. Leave won and apparently that's all that matters. Well if you cared as much about your country as leave voters claim to do then you could not imagine that that is appropriate because that way is no way to heal our split society. But perhaps you just really don't care. So sad.

You could say that every time there is an election, and xx party gets into power. And I know that you get the chance to vote again 5 years later, and your party of choice may win but there's a multitude of laws and policies that impact us that are never changed - Tony Blair and uni fees, Post Office sell off, de-nationalisation of many industries.

And I absolutely wouldn't blame Brexit on our split society. Why don't you spend some time looking at newspaper headlines from 4, 5, 6, 10, 15 years ago. Broken Britain has been a tag line for years and years.

 

[drdel]

Love it - over 16million voters and many who didn't vote 'have to suck it up' - because Leave voters don't actually care that that country is split and hurting badly. Leave won and apparently that's all that matters. Well if you cared as much about your country as leave voters claim to do then you could not imagine that that is appropriate because that way is no way to heal our split society. But perhaps you just really don't care. So sad.

You had a choice and voted just like myself and everyone else that cared enough to get off their backsides. Those who didn't particularly care could have voted but didn't. IF they had voted there is no FACTUAL evidence to suggest whether that majority would have supported your side of the argument or not.

The UK used a democratic method and a result was achieved. Expressing bitterness and constantly insulting the intelligence of those who cared enough to vote is, IMO, just silly and myopic.

 

[Foxholer]

You had a choice and voted just like myself and everyone else that cared enough to get off their backsides. Those who didn't particularly care could have voted but didn't. IF they had voted there is no FACTUAL evidence to suggest whether that majority would have supported your side of the argument or not.

The UK used a democratic method and a result was achieved. Expressing bitterness and constantly insulting the intelligence of those who cared enough to vote is, IMO, just silly and myopic.

I agree.

But your reply has (almost) nothing to do with SILH's one that you quote!

It would have been simpler, and possibly more 'honest' to have simply replied 'Yes!'!

@SILH The Leave/Remain issue was always going 'split' the country. That was, after all what triggered the referendum in the first place! I don't actually anybody is 'hurting badly' yrt - though some/many may be 'unhappy'. It's imperitave though that a 'good' deal is negotiated. a 'No Deal' is certainly a long way from that imo!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

For me the situation today is quite simple. If others had made a decision that you were virtually certain would have an outcome that would be harmful and damaging to the future of your loved ones - would you sit back and accept it; would you sit back and let that harm and damage to your loved ones happen - or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.

 

[MegaSteve]

For me the situation today is quite simple. If others had made a decision that you were virtually certain would have an outcome that would be harmful and damaging to the future of your loved ones - would you sit back and accept it; would you sit back and let that harm and damage to your loved ones happen - or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.

Which is probably how a whole load of folk felt in '75...
Took 40+ years to right the wrong...

And, no social media [at the time] or as much 'rant radio' to air our feelings...

 

[hors limite]

I'm sorry but when the narrow majority voted to leave things were very different. There was the £350mn/week Brexit dividend that has now disappeared. We were told that negotiating an exit would be easy and that trade with the EU wouldn't suffer - nobody mentioned the £40bn divorce bill.. We were told that the rest of the world would be hammering on our door with new trade deals. At the same time, many people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do have been warning about the dangers of no deal or a "hard" Brexit. They are in their multitudes and range from the boss of Airbus, to the Governor of the B of E, to the Chancellor and all we are expected to believe that they are somehow conspirators in "Project Fear". We are told that the EU has been holding back UK exporters from developing their markets - Germany seem to manage spectacularly well. If that wasn't enough we've got Rees- Mogg telling us it might take 50 years to see any benefit. The whole bloody shambles is costing £3bn which could be a lot better spent elsewhere.
The benefits from Brexit are always intangible - taking back control, ridding ourselves of EU shackles. Spare us Minford, but can anyone point out what the benefits of Brexit might be?

 

[Old Skier]

For me the situation today is quite simple. If others had made a decision that you were virtually certain would have an outcome that would be harmful and damaging to the future of your loved ones - would you sit back and accept it; would you sit back and let that harm and damage to your loved ones happen - or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.

What harm and hardship, I suppose providing proof on what harm and hardship has happened is to much to ask for.

 

[Dellboy]

For me the situation today is quite simple. If others had made a decision that you were virtually certain would have an outcome that would be harmful and damaging to the future of your loved ones - would you sit back and accept it; would you sit back and let that harm and damage to your loved ones happen - or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.

So please tell me how Brexit is going to be damaging and harmful to my love ones ?

Would really love to know how you can look into the future and know this seeing as nothing has changed yet !!

 

[drdel]

I agree.

But your reply has (almost) nothing to do with SILH's one that you quote!

It would have been simpler, and possibly more 'honest' to have simply replied 'Yes!'!

@SILH The Leave/Remain issue was always going 'split' the country. That was, after all what triggered the referendum in the first place! I don't actually anybody is 'hurting badly' yrt - though some/many may be 'unhappy'. It's imperitave though that a 'good' deal is negotiated. a 'No Deal' is certainly a long way from that imo!

I said what I mean and meant what I said. But thank you for correcting my dishonesty. You might wish to ensure you wear a hard hat as the high horse upon which you sit might just stumble and arrogance will not be enough to save your neck.

 

[Foxholer]

I said what I mean and meant what I said. But thank you for correcting my dishonesty. You might wish to ensure you wear a hard hat as the high horse upon which you sit might just stumble and arrogance will not be enough to save your neck.

Er. What dishonesty? Merely irrelevance!

I've come off enough real and 'forum' horses in my time to know that hard hats are compulsory - at least in 85% of cases!

And there's a goodly amount of 'physician heal thyself' wrt perceived arrogance too!