USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
Which is not going to go away whether we stay or leave. Hence the divorce bill being a non story.
Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!
- Thread starter drdel
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Which is not going to go away whether we stay or leave. Hence the divorce bill being a non story.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
There was no mention of it from the Remain campaign either, come to think of it there was no mention of the Irish border by either side either.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
bobmac
Major Champion
So just your view then, your opinion
How, by writing to Jeremy Hunt again?
Good luck with that
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
So could Theresa May' s comments be considered a lie by the Remain campaign as both she and the EU are saying that there won't be checks on the Irish border?
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
And as we approach some form of deal being revealed...Fintan O'Toole - highly respected Irish political journalist today writes
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...heer-ignorance-of-brexit-supporters-1.3695347
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...heer-ignorance-of-brexit-supporters-1.3695347
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
So just your view then, your opinion
How, by writing to Jeremy Hunt again?
Good luck with that
Yes - and I have. And I hope he listens to his conscience as Jo Johnson has done. And it would not surprise me if Hunt is one of reputed four cabinet ministers considering resigning on same grounds as JJ
Because Hunt is cut from the same cloth as JJ - voted to Remain but publicly accepted the outcome and supported the government in seeking a Leave deal. Until for Johnson the utter absurdity and catastrophic risks of continuing down the route the government is taken us became just too overwhelming.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
They can say what they want - but there will have to be some border. We can't just choose to forget that all that Remain side said about such things were dismissed at the time as being lies - Project Fear, because many Leave voters believed Leave - that what May was saying about the NI border to be a lie - if they were hood-winked then they were hood-winked by Leave.
And so let's not pretend - as many Leave supporters are doing - that the Irish border issue was not understood, appreciated or discussed before the vote. Because it was. it is just that leading lights in the Leave campaign painted all that Remain said about it as Project Fear.
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ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
Who can say what they want? Are you personally willing to accept that it was a lie by the Remain campaign? Much like the emergency budget we would have to have if we voted Leave. Or the fact that there were no plans for an EU army. Both of which have subsequently been proven to be lies.
drdel
Tour Rookie
Meanwhile there is considerable unhappiness with Barnier because within the remaining 27 the WTO will not provide access to trade etc in the way they thought and he has not consulted them on the manner in which the division of quotas will be allocated post Brexit.
And another great example of the arrogant way the EU operates is that the members will only be given the briefest of scans of a deal Barnier might present to them.
I cannot believe that those who voted to Remain would still prefer to be controlled by this unelected bunch whose spending is out of control and think the world resolves around them and they can simply ignore the views of elected national governments
And another great example of the arrogant way the EU operates is that the members will only be given the briefest of scans of a deal Barnier might present to them.
I cannot believe that those who voted to Remain would still prefer to be controlled by this unelected bunch whose spending is out of control and think the world resolves around them and they can simply ignore the views of elected national governments
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
The Irish border was hardly mentioned by anyone. Your examples of a newspaper article and a quote by TM is hardly proof that the leave and remain campaigns were making an issue of it.
Regarding your other comment, there has always been a border, IMO the current over-focus on it has been an attempt by the EU to paint the UK into a corner whereby we will accept a very bad deal to create a so called solution to the border issue. Its all hype, the EU is just kicking any resolution into the long grass to assist their aims. How on earth do ports like Rotterdam manage to work when they are importing and exporting masses of goods from al over the world.
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
Having worked in Germany, Holland and Belgium in the last 12 months as well as with several Italians there is a growing frustration with Barnier in how the negotiations have been handled. Merkel is under increasing pressure from German industry to get a good deal agreed and have warned that thousands of German jobs are at risk if this doesn't happen. And several Spanish colleagues have mentioned that the tourist trade over there are terrified by the prospect of no deal. But this almost never seems to get reported over here.
I think its semantics, and she was doing what politicians do. She was circumspect with the truth to give an impression of one thing when in reality she either didn't know or was aware that there were options available for negotiation but wasn't willing to discuss them beyond what the party line was in the run up to the vote.
Both sides lied. Both sides were circumspect with the truth, i.e. not lying but vague to give themselves wriggle room. And both sides are still playing with words.
I'm yet to see many, if any, frontline Remainers hold their hands up to the EU army that has been proposed by the EU commission, and has the support of several EU countries. There's a greater financial commitment on top of the future budget payments. I'm yet to see any frontline Remainers hold their hands up to the proposed EU chancellor that all the country chancellors will 'nod to.'
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
What Remain was saying was that there would have to be a hard border unless...a deal was reached that enabled there to not be one. And we are now in the situation where there could still be a hard border despite what the EU want - because the UK want to be able to leave a customs union without a border solution in place. The EU are resisting that.
The Leave campaign set out to convince the electorate that pretty much anything that Remain raised as potential blockers or problems with leaving was a lie. Because leaving would be oh so easy. And that is the truth of it. And some voters would bought that line.
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
That's kind of my point. There were lies, untruths, misrepresentations or whatever else you wish to call them, from both sides of the argument. But SiLH is so blinkered by his wish to remain in the EU that he can't bring himself to accept that Remain also lied, which in my opinion weakens any argument or point he raises due to him being so one sided on everything he posts. To him the lies told by Remain are described as "forecasts" or "predictions" and ignored, whereas the lies told by Leave are shouted about with outrage.
Its interesting to read what the press are reporting what the gov ministers over here in Spain are saying. Basically, stuff your negotiations we're going to sign our own deals on fishing, tourism and residencia if Barnier et al screw it up. Spanish fishing in UK waters is worth €500m, and they want a deal. The value of UK tourism in Spain is €13bn. And the spending of UK citizens living in Spain is over €45bn.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Nicely trying to evade the fact that you were not telling the whole truth about no-one talking about the NI/EU border before the vote. It was discussed.
And the usual Leave denial - continuing to assert that there is an obvious and easy solution to the border issue because there wasn't one 40yrs ago - despite neither country being in the EU 40yrs ago - and there being a very different political climate - with no Good Friday Agreement in place. And if the technical solution is going to happen in the near future where are all the tech companies punting their technologies - where are the similar technological solutions in place around the world. Where is the evidence that - for instance - Switzerland is planning to implement one in the coming few years.
And how do ports like Rotterdam manage? Maybe it help that the EU has trade agreements in place with many countries; and has scaled it's operations to cope with trade outside of these agreements and as required.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements
Meanwhile The UK DExEU minister discovers that there are 4m to-and-fro 'trade-related' vehicle movements a year through Dover. And it is well understood that there is no chance of the infrastructure, borders inspection resourcing, logistics and technology being scaled up from existing levels to that required to be in place for 29th March 2019 if we leave with no deal and outside of any customs agreement.
But yes. Just a dastardly EU ploy that they have just sneaked on us at the last minute - Brexit supporters would tell us.
The truth is that as soon as Mrs May laid down her objectives/red lines in her Lancaster House speech anyone who cared to be honest and realistic about it knew that we would reach where we are today.
Maybe May took the PM job and set out her Lancaster House objectives on the assumption that all these clever Leave people must have a plan - they must know what they are talking about - there must be a way of getting what they have sold the British public.
Fintan o'Toole would beg to differ.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Remain might have exaggerated - Leave lied and did not tell the truths about the major issues the country would face. They sold the electorate a false prospectus and told the electorate that everything the Remain campaign was saying was a lie - so even when Remain exaggerated we were told it was a lie - so not to be believed. And if you do not believe a lie have you been deceived?
And it is that Leave prospectus that has to now be delivered - and it is undeliverable - it always has been.
Where we are today it matters not a great deal what Remain said in the lead up to the vote - other than as and where what was said has come true or is most likely to come true - it highlights the blatant lies and deceptions inherent in the Leave campaign.
And so today the CIPD Labour Market Study (Autumn 2018) highlights where UK is in respect of wages and jobs - just the sort of things that were going to be resolved by leaving the EU leave told us.
https://www.cipd.co.uk/knowledge/work/trends/labour-market-outlook
The Labour Market Outlook for the last quarter of 2018 is based on survey responses from 1,002 employers across the UK.
In addition to providing a general picture of market trends, the findings will also have important significance for employers and HR. The data and analysis shows sustained high employment and demand for skills and labour. This however, is compounding the pressure on recruitment, with employers reporting greater difficulty in hiring and the prevalence of hard-to-fill vacancies hitting a rising proportion of organisations.
Combined with a shock drop in the number of both EU and non-EU citizens in employment in the UK, the overall picture is one of reducing labour supply. The effect of this is leading to higher workloads for existing staff, problems meeting customer service objectives, loss of business and orders in many organisations. The impact on productivity growth, along with uncertainty over Brexit, is having a braking effect on wage growth despite rises for new starters and key staff.
All of this underscores the need for workforce planning and high performance working. Employers should also address staff concerns about job security and keep them informed on Brexit developments. Government meanwhile, must continue to work closely with employers in evolving a migration strategy that will allow access to skills at all levels.
You need to split the movement of people and the movement of goods in the argument. You need to understand where the Good Friday Agreement sits with both sides of the border, and both sides of the political divide.
The free movement agreement was signed a lot more than 40 years ago, More like 95 years ago. That agreement has never been taken off the statute books, and has been referred to by both sides in the last 2.5 years, both sides saying it will continue after Brexit.
So that's the free movement of people taken care of.
A month ago, for the first time, the EU agreed that the free movement of goods across the border could continue providing there were adequate (electronic) checks in place - the very thing May and Davis had been saying for months. 3 days later they rolled back on that announcement and said the talks were in deadlock.
I've said it before, the EU are using the Good Friday Agreement in a disgraceful way. It is the political nuances that the agreement dealt with, not trade.
And now to the highlighted bit in your post. What utter, unadulterated rubbish! I'm calling you out on that one. The UK have said on numerous occasions they will not accept a border between the UK and N Ireland, and that's what the EU and Ireland have continued to call for.. You've well and truly twisted the truth there - bang out of order, especially when you continue to bleat about Leave liars.
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
Thank you for being so quick to prove my point. You just can't bring yourself to admit Remain lied can you? Go on, say it. You might find it therapeutic.
Is it really your position that it doesn't matter what Remain said during the referendum because they lost? So in any future vote people can say anything they like as long as they lose?
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