Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[hors limite]

Your post has been ignored due to it being so one sided and ironic, you suffer from the blinkered view that you accuse others of. Try a little more balance and you may be taken seriously.

Brexitspeak for I don't have an answer?

 

[hors limite]

Apart from a moan I see little actual contribution to the debate in your post.

While you moan about the UK's decision you might look at what is happening in the member states. Many of the many net-takers are economically unsound and will require much more support from the very few net contributors at a time when the EU growth is slowing and the 'centre's' management costs are growing well above sustainable levels. This would mean that if the UK remained our contribution would grow dramatically and be well above our own economic growth projections. The consequences would be the UK's debt levels would rise and domestic spending would need to fall very fast.

Yet despite the obvious direction of the EU's future the remainers who wish to be shackled to and increasingly Federal arrangement are quite happy for us to blindly follow this silly dream led by Juncker and Macron et al. Even Barnier's speech to rally the troops yesterday was ignored by many delegates who kept talking while he spoke - Merkel and her entourage left halfway through!

Dyson made his decision because the European (not EU) market is mature with slow growth and the new markets for his car are developing elsewhere add to the fact he can get cheaper production facilities and your assertion its related to worries Brexit is baseless.

The future is driven by global businesses, many who have an annual turnover more than many nations - they do not whitter on about the internal wrangles of minnows in the EU - they plan around them. The UK must re-discover it competitive focus and operate on a global stage with global players and investment - staying in the EU (in its present form) will only ensure we waste more and more resources on internal (EU) arguments and support - in a slow but sure race to the bottom.

OK
Point 1 You forecast increased budget contributions. In 2016 our net EU contribution was about £8bn out of our total budget spend of £800bn. If our contribution doubled, the effect on debt would hardly be significant. At the same time, Brexit will lead to a slowdown in growth with a reduced tax take. Will these losses outweigh the cost of EU membership? Also, let's not forget the £40bn divorce bill that would have taken care of our contributions for a few years.

Point 2 Federalisation. Macron, Juncker and Barnier do not determine the future direction of the EU. Federalisation has been talked about for years and that's all it has been - talk. There are pressures in the EU and none of us know how things will work out.

Point 3 Dyson. I fully understand his personal motives. I just don't understand how he can be a credible Brexit advocate. If he was saying, throw off the shackles and me and my ilk will invest in the new sunlit UK uplands, I could see how that would work. Instead, he is setting an example for taking investment overseas. As for the markets for his new electric car, they exist primarily in the sophisticated "green" markets of the EU.

Point 4 Global stage. As I said earlier, Germany do not seem to be at all constrained by the EU in providing consistent spectacular success in global markets. I am sorry to say that I believe that it's the products that we lack not the opportunities.

 

[SocketRocket]

Brexitspeak for I don't have an answer?

I have one but I would rather push pins in my eyes than go through it all over again.

 

[Old Skier]

WHEN? Rees - Mogg himself talked about a wait of 50 years.

Remainers continue to call the man a fool so why do you want to take anything he says with more than a pinch of salt.

You now choose to take the negatives and ignore the positive that he has said, I wonder why.

 

[Old Skier]

There are pressures in the EU and none of us know how things will work out.

And there we have it.

Leaver says they don't know how things are going to work out = bad

Remainer says they don't know how things are going to work out = good

 

[Hobbit]

OK
Point 1 You forecast increased budget contributions. In 2016 our net EU contribution was about £8bn out of our total budget spend of £800bn. If our contribution doubled, the effect on debt would hardly be significant. At the same time, Brexit will lead to a slowdown in growth with a reduced tax take. Will these losses outweigh the cost of EU membership? Also, let's not forget the £40bn divorce bill that would have taken care of our contributions for a few years.

Point 2 Federalisation. Macron, Juncker and Barnier do not determine the future direction of the EU. Federalisation has been talked about for years and that's all it has been - talk. There are pressures in the EU and none of us know how things will work out.

Point 3 Dyson. I fully understand his personal motives. I just don't understand how he can be a credible Brexit advocate. If he was saying, throw off the shackles and me and my ilk will invest in the new sunlit UK uplands, I could see how that would work. Instead, he is setting an example for taking investment overseas. As for the markets for his new electric car, they exist primarily in the sophisticated "green" markets of the EU.

Point 4 Global stage. As I said earlier, Germany do not seem to be at all constrained by the EU in providing consistent spectacular success in global markets. I am sorry to say that I believe that it's the products that we lack not the opportunities.

Point 1. The EU have proposed a budget increase of 3% on its current ‘take.’ Doesn’t sound too bad...."........until you realise that there are 10 countries that don’t contribute anything, and that increase has got to come from the net contributors. The figure given to the U.K. is €22bn. But then there’s the rebate. That’ll be the rebate that the EU is proposing to stop.

Point 2. First of all, do you actually know what federalisation is? Can you explain what federalisation is? Short version; central control. Italy recently proposed a budget which had spending within its GDP limits and within the EU’s rules. The EU have rejected it. Central control. And an EU army; why? The EU is a super-state, and to suggest otherwise is naive. Have a look at how many EU laws the U.K. has opposed and how times the U.K. has lost out in its opposition. That’s central control, and that is federalism.

Point 3. There’s business people and economists on both sides of the fence. Are both sides wrong? Even Mark Carney has admitted some of his forecasts were overly negative. George Osbourne predicted the sky would fall down, and even his own Treasury and a Commons Select committee called him out on his predictions. Neither side has total credibility.

Point 4. In April it was mooted that the U.K. would be invited to join the trading bloc that has the strongest growth rates in the world. On Oct 8th the PM of Japan confirmed that invite.

But splitting hairs with you, like Hogan, is pointless as you are completely brainwashed to believing in Armageddon. Personally, I think there will be problems and a dip but I don’t think the sky will fall down.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Leader in today's Times - titled Honest Jo

Jo Johnson is right...Mr Johnson should be applauded for his honesty...Mr Johnson noted..."We would be out of Europe yet run by Europe". Nobody voted for this. The only alternative to Mrs May's deal, at least as far as the prime minister is concerned, is that we leave with no deal at all. As Mr Johnson says, this would be a calamitous outcome for Britain.

And so over to the Leavers, the expert economists, trade experts and negotiators on the Leave side who will rubbish the Times leader and Mr Johnson by stating what? Let me guess, in denial they will tell us that we should expect nothing more from a Remain Newspaper and a Remainer like Mr Johnson. And will offer little more than 'the country voted to leave - the government must honour the vote'. And the denial of the truth of the Times leader and Mr Johnson will continue.

By refusing to play along with this game, Jo Johnson has done the country an important public service.

 

[Hobbit]

Leader in today's Times - titled Honest Jo

Jo Johnson is right...Mr Johnson should be applauded for his honesty...Mr Johnson noted..."We would be out of Europe yet run by Europe". Nobody voted for this. The only alternative to Mrs May's deal, at least as far as the prime minister is concerned, is that we leave with no deal at all. As Mr Johnson says, this would be a calamitous outcome for Britain.

And so over to the Leavers, the expert economists, trade experts and negotiators on the Leave side who will rubbish the Times leader and Mr Johnson by stating what? Let me guess, in denial they will tell us that we should expect nothing more from a Remain Newspaper and a Remainer like Mr Johnson. And will offer little more than 'the country voted to leave - the government must honour the vote'. And the denial of the truth of the Times leader and Mr Johnson will continue.

By refusing to play along with this game, Jo Johnson has done the country an important public service.

I’ve read some bits on it today, not an awful lot, but that isn’t the slant I took from the Beeb’s website.

I applaud what he’s done. Much of what he said was about what an awful deal/betrayal May’s deal is, and that he expected that Parliament will reject it.

 

[USER1999]

Indeed. There is leaving, staying, and Mays proposal, the worst option.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I’ve read some bits on it today, not an awful lot, but that isn’t the slant I took from the Beeb’s website.

I applaud what he’s done. Much of what he said was about what an awful deal/betrayal May’s deal is, and that he expected that Parliament will reject it.

I applaud it also - I have been asking for some honesty from the government for ages. The Times leader piece also writes...

Of course Mr Johnson's hostility to Mrs May's deal is shared by his brother Boris. But where Jo has told the truth about the choice facing the country, the former foreign secretary has been characteristically dishonest. ..he (Boris Johnson) claims there is a simple alternative to what Mrs May is trying to negotiate that would deliver a painless solution to Brexit. It is a fantasy. Boris Johnson has been able to get away with this only because Mrs May herself has not been straight with the public about the trade-offs.

I note that I quote verbatim from the Times sitting in front of me.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Indeed. There is leaving, staying, and Mays proposal, the worst option.

Except it is now very widely realised and understood that there is no leaving that is worse than No Deal, and no leaving that is better than remaining.

And that is a toughie for many Leavers to accept

 

[ColchesterFC]

Except is is now very widely realised and understood that there is no leaving that is worse than No Deal, and no leaving that is better than remaining.

And that is a toughie for many Leavers to accept

Complete nonsense from you once again, with your opinions being posted as facts. It's likely/probable that there will be an initial dip associated with leaving (which will mainly be down to the incompetence of the current government in negotiating our exit. A cynic might suggest that it has been done deliberately to make remaining more attractive) but no-one can say what the EU will look like 5, 10 or 20 years from now, or even if it will still exist. It could turn out that leaving now was 100% the correct decision and has saved the UK a fortune from having to bail out failing EU countries. Maybe the Euro will collapse and plunge the EU into crisis. Maybe other countries will leave and further weaken the EU. Nobody can predict what the future holds but you and other totally blinkered Remainers are determined that everything is going to be a disaster.

And I'm not a Leaver finding it tough to accept. I'm someone that would've been happier to stay in the EU, but have accepted that a majority wanted to leave and just wish we had a government with the balls to stand up to the EU in the negotiations rather than dropping their trousers and bending over at every turn.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I liked this bit of advice offered by the Scottish Government [in waiting]

Do not stockpile medicine, stockpile dry and canned goods instead.
When Brexit kicks in food will be much more valuable and will be easily be traded for medicine.

 

[Hobbit]

I applaud it also - I have been asking for some honesty from the government for ages. The Times leader piece also writes...

Of course Mr Johnson's hostility to Mrs May's deal is shared by his brother Boris. But where Jo has told the truth about the choice facing the country, the former foreign secretary has been characteristically dishonest. ..he (Boris Johnson) claims there is a simple alternative to what Mrs May is trying to negotiate that would deliver a painless solution to Brexit. It is a fantasy. Boris Johnson has been able to get away with this only because Mrs May herself has not been straight with the public about the trade-offs.

I note that I quote verbatim from the Times sitting in front of me.

You do realise that you are believing an opinion. And its an opinion that supports what you want to believe. You have consistently not believed what Leavers have had to say. Not saying you're wrong, just highlighting that you never believe anything from the Leave side. It sort of brings into question your open-mindedness to the debate.

In the early days you were all about respecting the result and having a compromise. No where near that now. Where's your respect for the other side, the very respect you asked for from the Leavers.

 

[IanM]

Shortage of medicines eh? How so? The World’s top pharmaceutical companies are not European.

We also run a trade surplus of £4.3 billion in this sector.

 

[Old Skier]

Minister resigns after getting elected on a manifesto to leave the EU yet doesn't have the nerve to quit as an MP and force a bye election.

Further moves by the political class to overturn THE PEOPLES VOTE.

 

[harpo_72]

several Years in the future this thread will be answered with “ I told you so”.
That’s my prediction and it will probably be the last post on it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Boris Johnson urges Cabinet Members to vote against the Prime Minister. Sedition. REMOVE THE WHIP

 

[jp5]

Can't see who'll be voting with the PM at this rate. Could she have concocted a deal which is less supported from every faction than this one?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You do realise that you are believing an opinion. And its an opinion that supports what you want to believe. You have consistently not believed what Leavers have had to say. Not saying you're wrong, just highlighting that you never believe anything from the Leave side. It sort of brings into question your open-mindedness to the debate.

In the early days you were all about respecting the result and having a compromise. No where near that now. Where's your respect for the other side, the very respect you asked for from the Leavers.

If there was substantive evidence of the existence of unicorns - but there isn't. Some might tell me that unicorns exist but for all the world-wide exploration of most corners of the earth not a single unicorn has been found. I do not base things on the understanding of just one individual such as JJ - unlike Leave campaigners who will endlessly quote Minford, Dysn and Tim Martin - and relatively few others.

I do not wish the UK to leave. That was my starting position and it remains my position. My compromise would be what is often referred to as a soft Brexit - that Leavers might choose to call it Brino - well that is their issue. For me it would be a massive compromise.