Beckenham Place Park

[jpjeffery]

Beckenham Place Park officially closed yesterday.

Lewisham (Labour) Council dogmatically ignored a nearly 8,000 signatures strong petition, over 500 formal complaint letters, and even an expression of interest to take on the golf course AND mansion from an established and successful golf operator. Why? Because, well, you know, 'they know best'.

Lewisham will claim they're restoring the park's heritage with money (£4.8million, they hope) from the Heritage Lottery Fund, but the golf course has been in the public realm for longer than most of us have been alive. THAT is the public heritage of the park. Not the state of the park when it was private land and only staff and guests of the Cator family were allowed in.

Braeside Golf Club, which was based at Beckenham Place Park, now moves to Selsdon Park for a new era, taking around 50 current members with us, and adding eight new members in the past week or so. (If you're interested in joining us, email newmembers@braesidegolfclub.com :smirk

There are still efforts going on to save the course, most currently, the Lewisham branch of People Before Profit occupied the café overnight/this morning. Bless 'em.

A sad day for golf, indeed.

If you'd like to read more about this: http://savebppgolf.wordpress.com

 

[Hosel Fade]

What is their explanation of restoring its heritage?

Are they just wanting to plough the course under because they can't get a profit from it?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

But if those 8k signatures how many were actual local residents who used the course? I would suggest that it the majority who signed the petition were active players there the course wouldn't have been able to afford to close.

 

[jpjeffery]

Essentially they're trying to get more people to use the park, and with that general aim they have no arguments from anyone.

They want to introduce extra features (e.g. a climbing area), again, no arguments.

But they're also talking about making the park look like it did before the golf course existed. But that was when it was a private park, not a public park. Incidentally, when the golf course was introduced it was a private course in the private park, so still not open to the general public.

So, their idea of heritage is a heritage that belonged to the landed gentry (i.e. John Cator and his friends), not the local populace.

They do say that the course lost the council money in previous years but our argument is that they never properly tried to avoid losses, and didn't engage with other operators (e.g. MyTime, who successfully run courses like High Elms) to see what they could do to turn things around. In fact, we believe that the running down of the course was deliberate so they could justify its closure.

In short, they've wanted rid of the course for years.

 

[duncan mackie]

Essentially they're trying to get more people to use the park, and with that general aim they have no arguments from anyone.

They want to introduce extra features (e.g. a climbing area), again, no arguments.

But they're also talking about making the park look like it did before the golf course existed. But that was when it was a private park, not a public park. Incidentally, when the golf course was introduced it was a private course in the private park, so still not open to the general public.

So, their idea of heritage is a heritage that belonged to the landed gentry (i.e. John Cator and his friends), not the local populace.

They do say that the course lost the council money in previous years but our argument is that they never properly tried to avoid losses, and didn't engage with other operators (e.g. MyTime, who successfully run courses like High Elms) to see what they could do to turn things around. In fact, we believe that the running down of the course was deliberate so they could justify its closure.

In short, they've wanted rid of the course for years.

It's a shame, and I used to play matches there when active at Poult Wood GC. The co- existence there of golfers and other users was always excellent.

To actually lose money on it, given they had no rent, is unbelievable.

 

[backwoodsman]

Hmmm..

The closure of any course is regrettable but if the Council is convinced it costs too much or is not profitable, then I fear there is little one is going to be able to do to make them keep it open. Despite being a Lewisham resident, I haven't followed it that closely but from the stuff I've read, the "Save the 18" group don't seem (to me) to have made a very strong case on their perceived viability of the course That's what they needed to concentrate on and not follow the red herring of the Lottery bid. Nobbling the lottery bid won't save the course

Sadly, the options appear to be a) a closed course plus some money spent to "improve" the park, or b) just a closed course. And as a Lewisham resident, one option seems marginally better than the other. But both involve a closed course.

 

[Blue in Munich]

A great shame. Played a lot of my early golf there, back when Bill Woodman ran the pro shop, got the nearest I've ever been to a hole in one there (7th), worked in and around the area. Years ago it was the busiest public course outside the USA I believe. Wish I'd known it was this close to closure, I'd have made the effort to play it one last time.

Anyone with half a mind to make this profitable should be able to do so. If it was losing money it's hard to conclude that it wasn't intentional.

 

[Dasit]

I played Selsdon Park yesterday actually

Was a bit of a dull course and pretty boggy even thought not been much rain

Sorry to hear about your course, can see a lot going the same way in the area

 

[backwoodsman]

A great shame. Played a lot of my early golf there, back when Bill Woodman ran the pro shop, got the nearest I've ever been to a hole in one there (7th), worked in and around the area. Years ago it was the busiest public course outside the USA I believe. Wish I'd known it was this close to closure, I'd have made the effort to play it one last time.

Anyone with half a mind to make this profitable should be able to do so. If it was losing money it's hard to conclude that it wasn't intentional.

Why?

Loads of courses have closed because they aren't/weren't profitable. In fact it's pretty much the main reason courses do close.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Why?

Loads of courses have closed because they aren't/weren't profitable. In fact it's pretty much the main reason courses do close.

Did you miss the bit about the busiest public course outside the United States? The place was always rammed, at weekends they were queuing on the roads outside at 2 in the morning in their cars. The only decent public golf course for some distance around, the potential catchment was huge if maintained & managed properly. I don't notice Bromley Council rushing to close High Elms & Royal Magpie, and they have much stiffer competition from local clubs.

 

[Oddsocks]

I played Selsdon Park yesterday actually

Was a bit of a dull course and pretty boggy even thought not been much rain

Sorry to hear about your course, can see a lot going the same way in the area

Without this turning into a battle, the statement about selsdon is absolute faff!

Selsdon in full bloom is a course with a great layout and quite scenic , and with some decent investment could be quite special. As soon as someone see's the potential instead of the chain seeing it as a bolt on the tides could really change

 

[backwoodsman]

Did you miss the bit about the busiest public course outside the United States? The place was always rammed, at weekends they were queuing on the roads outside at 2 in the morning in their cars. The only decent public golf course for some distance around, the potential catchment was huge if maintained & managed properly. I don't notice Bromley Council rushing to close High Elms & Royal Magpie, and they have much stiffer competition from local clubs.

No, didn't miss that bit. But the operative word is "was. Did no-one notice the course building boom of the 90s - which is since when Beckenham has been losing custom. Look at this thread - and previous ones about the place - and see how many times you see a phrase along the lines of "l used to play there ..." (operative word being "used"). I used to play there myself. Yes, people used to queue up at 2 in the morning to get a tee time. But is anyone going to do that these days - are they heck.(I know they do for The Old Course, but its hardly the same is it?)

Lewisham, like all councils, is desperate for revenue. If golf at Beckenham was a money spinner (or potential money spinner) they'd be falling over themselves to keep it open. (And don't get sidetracked by the lottery grant - that's not revenue)

(And just for info - l have no connection to Lewisham other than that l live there. The limit of my loyalty is that they fleece me of a shed load of council tax and thats it)

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I think the statement that 50 members of Braeside GC( the club within this public golf course) have moved, tells you everything. No club can survive on a core membership of 50. I also think that if 10% of those 8k petition signatures were members or played regularly there the petition would have carried more substance.
no one likes to see clubs and courses disappear, but let's be honest there is a fair amount of public courses within a reasonable travel distance, not forgetting the private clubs as well.

 

[backwoodsman]

I think the statement that 50 members of Braeside GC( the club within this public golf course) have moved, tells you everything. No club can survive on a core membership of 50. I also think that if 10% of those 8k petition signatures were members or played regularly there the petition would have carried more substance.
no one likes to see clubs and courses disappear, but let's be honest there is a fair amount of public courses within a reasonable travel distance, not forgetting the private clubs as well.

To be fair to Braeside, they are only a club who used the course as their base. They don't need a large membership to function as a club. But it seems there weren't enough of them, and especially not enough of everyone else, to generate enough greenfees to keep the place going.

 

[jpjeffery]

Just to answer the question about how busy the course has been, 20,000 rounds a year, and that number has been increasing.

Assuming the average green fee price is £18, 18x20k=£360,000, on to which café proceeds would be added.

And not only was there interest from a golf operator to submit a bid for the course (and mansion), but Glendale (part of Parkwood PLC) have been operating the course and café happily for a few years. It's hard to believe that Glendale would be willing to make a loss on an annual rolling contract.

I think what grates the most with people is the apparent lack of effort on the part of the council to make the course work. Instead - at best - they just seemed happy to let it exist as it was without making any kind of investment (as in upkeep, repair, even small but constant improvements) back in to the course in order to maintain its popularity. Look at the photo of the state of the practice nets (in http://wp.me/p7NuzQ-3Z) as an example of what I mean.

The 50 Braeside members who are moving to Selsdon is about 75-80% of the membership prior to closure of Beckenham Place Park. For those who aren't coming it's just a case that Selsdon is too far away for them. Almost none of the ladies section is staying with us for that very reason.

 

[jpjeffery]

Without this turning into a battle, the statement about selsdon is absolute faff!

Selsdon in full bloom is a course with a great layout and quite scenic , and with some decent investment could be quite special. As soon as someone sees the potential instead of the chain seeing it as a bolt on the tides could really change

Agreed! Dasit's description of Selsdon certainly doesn't match my experience of it. I believe it's built on chalky land so the drainage is good.

Oh well...

 

[jpjeffery]

...from the stuff I've read, the "Save the 18" group don't seem (to me) to have made a very strong case on their perceived viability of the course That's what they needed to concentrate on and not follow the red herring of the Lottery bid...

That's interesting, because there certainly has been a lot of pressure on the council's claims of non-viability.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Forgive my ignorance, but 20k rounds a years only equates to 55 rounds a day. That doesn't seem to me to be that great a number, especially for a public course.

 

[Dasit]

1596232[/URL]]Without this turning into a battle, the statement about selsdon is absolute faff!

Selsdon in full bloom is a course with a great layout and quite scenic , and with some decent investment could be quite special. As soon as someone see's the potential instead of the chain seeing it as a bolt on the tides could really change

For they money I paid (15quid) it was great value.

needs some investment as it feels a bit neglected

 

[C&R]

For they money I paid (15quid) it was great value.

needs some investment as it feels a bit neglected

Always thought selsdon could be a cracking course but it does need heavy insvestment as it is a little rough around the edges. Shame