USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
I have often wondered why we try to make the game more difficult. Masochism I guess.
Be careful what you wish for again
- Thread starter bobmac
- Start date
coolhand
Head Pro
The point of any handicapping system is to give everyone an equal chance of winning but none, that I’m aware of in any sport, are especially good at it. They are always historical and can only allow for so many variables (weather, venue characteristics, strength of field etc) therefore they are always flawed. Golf is one of the most challenging because there is such a high level of form/luck involved in each shot. This variability means that high handicappers have a much higher chance of beating their handicap than low ones and therefore will win more competitions.
The danger is to try and make the handicap system better (more results analysed, more variables taken into considerations) – you end up with a system that is no better in terms of outcome but is much more difficult to administer/understand.
I believe the answer is to simply embrace the imperfection of the system – either accepts that odd results are produced or structure competitions to take them into account.
Sailing (in the UK at least) learnt the first lesson the hard way and now adopts the later approach. The people who desperately want a level playing field take part in class racing (scratch comps), those that believe their skill can outweigh a slight variation in handicapping race in tightly banded events (Category based comps), everyone else just enjoys the sport on a playing field that is at least not too skewd against them.
Lecture over
The danger is to try and make the handicap system better (more results analysed, more variables taken into considerations) – you end up with a system that is no better in terms of outcome but is much more difficult to administer/understand.
I believe the answer is to simply embrace the imperfection of the system – either accepts that odd results are produced or structure competitions to take them into account.
Sailing (in the UK at least) learnt the first lesson the hard way and now adopts the later approach. The people who desperately want a level playing field take part in class racing (scratch comps), those that believe their skill can outweigh a slight variation in handicapping race in tightly banded events (Category based comps), everyone else just enjoys the sport on a playing field that is at least not too skewd against them.
Lecture over
For most comps I play in it’s not an issue due to grouping, but I find some of the friendly’s you get stitched up a bit. Played against a few friends a few weeks ago I off 9 him of 22, so giving him 13 shots. Off the yellows so a much shorter course which helped him a bit. I shot a 1 under gross played pretty well and still got beat 
funkyfred
Challenge Tour Pro
Interesting debate. I am now nearer 60 than 50 and got my first official h/c of 26 last March. I use to play very occasionally, anything from twice to 12 times a year for the last 30 years.
When I joined my club I thought that with playing regularly i would reduce my handicap which was my main aim. So i entered most of the competitions. Nothing won, but some good results that got me cut to 25.6. However my inconsistancy saw my h/c rise to 26.2 by the end of the year. I played for the club in some mixed matches (won 4 out of 4)and I had some nice things said to me from my lady partners and the couldn't believe i was a 26 h/c.
My good play (for my h/c)obviously got noticed by some of the men as several would say before comps, surely you are not still playing off 26. but these people weren't there when in a medal I shot 130, or a stableford score 19.
I started this year really well with two second places, and my h/c was cut to 24.8. Not big but a start. However since then it has been a struggle and I am now back to 25.2.
In an earlier thread this week someone ask for our best/worse scores, mine is 86/110 (par 71) 86, imagine the stick i would get if that was in a competition.
My problem is consistancy, i can often do 14/15 good holes but I nearly always throw in a couple of blobs or 9's in my round. Yes my course is difficult, many of the locals say it is 2 shots harder than most courses. That's why I was so happy last week in scoring on every hole and notched up a stableford score of 39.
As for winning competitions? it wouldn't bother me if I never won one, and i am as competitive as the next guy. All I want to do is go out there and enjoy myself, and since I joined my club i have a 99% record of doing that. (the 130 medal was the one I didn't) I play in ALL weathers come wind, rain, frost sun or even possibly this weekend snow.
And what of my handicap?
Well I'm not going to be careful for what I wish for, more golf and a reduction in my h/c. I thank you.
When I joined my club I thought that with playing regularly i would reduce my handicap which was my main aim. So i entered most of the competitions. Nothing won, but some good results that got me cut to 25.6. However my inconsistancy saw my h/c rise to 26.2 by the end of the year. I played for the club in some mixed matches (won 4 out of 4)and I had some nice things said to me from my lady partners and the couldn't believe i was a 26 h/c.
My good play (for my h/c)obviously got noticed by some of the men as several would say before comps, surely you are not still playing off 26. but these people weren't there when in a medal I shot 130, or a stableford score 19.
I started this year really well with two second places, and my h/c was cut to 24.8. Not big but a start. However since then it has been a struggle and I am now back to 25.2.
In an earlier thread this week someone ask for our best/worse scores, mine is 86/110 (par 71) 86, imagine the stick i would get if that was in a competition.
My problem is consistancy, i can often do 14/15 good holes but I nearly always throw in a couple of blobs or 9's in my round. Yes my course is difficult, many of the locals say it is 2 shots harder than most courses. That's why I was so happy last week in scoring on every hole and notched up a stableford score of 39.
As for winning competitions? it wouldn't bother me if I never won one, and i am as competitive as the next guy. All I want to do is go out there and enjoy myself, and since I joined my club i have a 99% record of doing that. (the 130 medal was the one I didn't) I play in ALL weathers come wind, rain, frost sun or even possibly this weekend snow.
And what of my handicap?
Well I'm not going to be careful for what I wish for, more golf and a reduction in my h/c. I thank you.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
For most comps I play in it’s not an issue due to grouping, but I find some of the friendly’s you get stitched up a bit. Played against a few friends a few weeks ago I off 9 him of 22, so giving him 13 shots. Off the yellows so a much shorter course which helped him a bit. I shot a 1 under gross played pretty well and still got beat
You get stitched up in friendlys but shot -1 gross off 9 h/cap?
I think the fairest way to play any comp/match is off 3/4 h/cap but the players need their shots on the correct holes... as discussed in a previous thread.
Leftie
Tour Winner
Surely, the low h/cappers must have been, at some time, the very people they complain about. How else do you get a low h/cap other than by shooting lower scores than other players? (OK, they could regularly come in the top 2 or 3 in comps I suppose)
GB72
Money List Winner
Thing is high handicappers have the most scope for improvement as many have just taken up the game and are improving. Based on that the likelihood is that at least one of them will shoot a low score in a comp.
I would assume that mid handicappers in many cases have reached their peak or that their scope for improvement has reduced so I would expect them to shoot nearer their handicap.
Once you get to single figures I would suspect that you need your 'A' game to shoot your handicap and generally lowest gross is the prize you are aiming at.
May be wrong but that is how I see it.
I would assume that mid handicappers in many cases have reached their peak or that their scope for improvement has reduced so I would expect them to shoot nearer their handicap.
Once you get to single figures I would suspect that you need your 'A' game to shoot your handicap and generally lowest gross is the prize you are aiming at.
May be wrong but that is how I see it.
viscount17
Money List Winner
the handicap systems, CONGU & USGA, actually favour low handicappers by about 4 shots - there is a mathematical proof somewhere but I can't find it (I know there is another in the book 'The Science of Golf).
in most 1 v 1 and multiple round comps, the low h/cap almost always has the edge.
what gives high h/caps the edge in comps is numbers, and then usually only in single round competitions as the old devil consistency rears its ugly head. in a big field there will be a high proportion of above average handicaps (16 and up?) which means that the odds on any one player scoring well are greatly increased.
presumably the real answer is a quicker reacting handicap system?
in most 1 v 1 and multiple round comps, the low h/cap almost always has the edge.
what gives high h/caps the edge in comps is numbers, and then usually only in single round competitions as the old devil consistency rears its ugly head. in a big field there will be a high proportion of above average handicaps (16 and up?) which means that the odds on any one player scoring well are greatly increased.
presumably the real answer is a quicker reacting handicap system?
Fyldewhite
Tour Winner
We do not have an issue at all with high handicappers winning everything at our club. In fact, there are just as many Category 1 players on the board as any other category.
However, we do three important things. Firstly we have a handicap limit of 20 for all board comps. Second, we only have two comps a year that you can win by having one good round on the day (oh and I won one of those this year playing off 6 btw). All the rest you have to qualify to play in the final and then the major finals are 36 on the day so there's a big slant for consistency winning. Lastly, we have NO stableford board comps.
However, we do three important things. Firstly we have a handicap limit of 20 for all board comps. Second, we only have two comps a year that you can win by having one good round on the day (oh and I won one of those this year playing off 6 btw). All the rest you have to qualify to play in the final and then the major finals are 36 on the day so there's a big slant for consistency winning. Lastly, we have NO stableford board comps.
Oddsocks
Ryder Cup Winner
I dont think handicaps favour the higher handicapper, but the higher your handicap the bigger room for error without the death of a scare card.
What i do notice though is if you look at the card of someone around 8-10hc, their golf is more consistant so their scorer card will generally be full of 2 pointers with the odd 3 pointer. Now look at the card of a mid 20's capper, on a good day a few 4 pointers isnt out of the ordinary.
Also a 8/10 h/c only has to have 2/3 bad holes and their card is shot.... put that same pattern in the hands of a mid 20's capper and they have enough shots to still drag back 3 or 4 3pointers to get that margin back.
What i do notice though is if you look at the card of someone around 8-10hc, their golf is more consistant so their scorer card will generally be full of 2 pointers with the odd 3 pointer. Now look at the card of a mid 20's capper, on a good day a few 4 pointers isnt out of the ordinary.
Also a 8/10 h/c only has to have 2/3 bad holes and their card is shot.... put that same pattern in the hands of a mid 20's capper and they have enough shots to still drag back 3 or 4 3pointers to get that margin back.
jammydodger
Tour Winner
I gauge my progress in this sport by my handicap not by how many things i've won. I'm a better player than most but not as good as a few. I'm not searching to be the best or even anywhere close to it , but I do play all the comps I can and gauge my success in h/c terms. If I win then thats brilliant because we all like winning. If i've played a nice round of golf and had good company along the way then thats a win too isnt it ? Who wins the comps really has no bearing whatsoever on my enjoyment of my round of golf. How can it cos you dont know the result til after youve finished. Are you going to start sulking cos someone off 21 had a net 64 or 43 points ? Other peoples golf shouldnt have any say at all in your own enjoyment of your OWN game.
High or low handicap and who it suits best is very hard to quantify as its mostly a feeling based on your personal experiences.
High or low handicap and who it suits best is very hard to quantify as its mostly a feeling based on your personal experiences.
bobmac
Major Champion
So it looks like the high h/capers are high because they are inconsistant but can therefor have a good day.
e.g. 15 good holes and 3 blow-outs.
Scenario...
A 2 ball sets off down the first
Player A We'll call him James off 6
Player B We'll call him Smiffy off 12
This is a very hypothetical situation you understand
James gives Smiffy 6 shots.
Smiffy plays well all the way around only dropping 6 shots to CSS for 15 holes. Unfortunately, he also has 3 net double bogeys along the way.
James plays exactly to his h/cap... 12 pars and 6 bogeys
In stroke play they are tied nett scores
Who would win in match play?
e.g. 15 good holes and 3 blow-outs.
Scenario...
A 2 ball sets off down the first
Player A We'll call him James off 6
Player B We'll call him Smiffy off 12
This is a very hypothetical situation you understand
James gives Smiffy 6 shots.
Smiffy plays well all the way around only dropping 6 shots to CSS for 15 holes. Unfortunately, he also has 3 net double bogeys along the way.
James plays exactly to his h/cap... 12 pars and 6 bogeys
In stroke play they are tied nett scores
Who would win in match play?
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
Neither, it'll be dark before they finish.
Birdman
Medal Winner
My h/c is 10.7 and I feel that the system is a fair one as long as the recipient is HONEST. As a large number have said we strive to get our h/c as low as possible. Those that are PLEASED when they gain 0.1 and want thier h/c increased are playing for the wrong reasons. Personal achievement is far more satisfying than personal gain through default.
Oddsocks
Ryder Cup Winner
Are they playing off matts "hypothetically speaking"
Leftie
Tour Winner
In this scenario it would depend on which holes the bogeys and doubles were made in relation to the other player and to the stroke index, whether James had won before Smiffy got his last shot on 18th, etc, etc, but all things being equal I would guess that James would be unlikely to win, a half would be possible but probably Smiffy would have the edge.
The flaw (if there is one in this scenario) is that a 6 h/capper would be unlikely to have a round of 12 pars and 6 bogeys. Throw in the 2 or 3 birdies which a 6 h/c player would expect and 2 or 3 more bogeys and the odds would change back to 55% / 45% in the lower h/c's favour.
HTH
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
^
^
^
Nice one!
I'm with Jammy... focus, hit the ball, write your score down and see how you got on when you finish.
sawtooth
Tour Winner
Hi Bob, I think its a fair system in general but you cant do much to stop the odd bandit winning something. I dont really mind as my goal is to get down as low as I can and if I win something along the way great but its no big deal if I dont.
Theres always the open championships that you can enter that are for certain handicap categories, that helps level the playing field even more.
Theres always the open championships that you can enter that are for certain handicap categories, that helps level the playing field even more.
Basher
Tour Winner
A thought provoking thread.
I know when I've had a good round, be it competition or informal knock.
Of course, I'd love to see my handicap come down and always play to the best of my ability when out on the course. If I didn't, what would be the point in playing?
My club has 2 divisions for big competitions normally. Us high h/c's have some chance of getting on the leader board in our division on these occasions.
General medal rounds are normally played off max 18 with just the 1 division......... no chance of competing under these circumstances. I couldn't care less tbh. Obviously I'd prefer to play off full h/c, but just going out and playing the game on a Saturday is enough for me. I'm playing against my last best round, trying to beat it with a card in my hand.
I see other golfers hitting pretty damned good shots then cursing because it comes up 10 feet short or wide of the green. I think they call this perfectionism. Nothing wrong with someone trying to perfect their game.
100+ yards out and I'm almost ecstatic if I land one on the green and mildly orgasmic if it rolls close to the pin!
With continued practise I hope to aspire to mid handicap next season (below 20 would do for now). If I win any comps between now and then, it will be down to me playing well, and certainly NOT banditry!!!
I know when I've had a good round, be it competition or informal knock.
Of course, I'd love to see my handicap come down and always play to the best of my ability when out on the course. If I didn't, what would be the point in playing?
My club has 2 divisions for big competitions normally. Us high h/c's have some chance of getting on the leader board in our division on these occasions.
General medal rounds are normally played off max 18 with just the 1 division......... no chance of competing under these circumstances. I couldn't care less tbh. Obviously I'd prefer to play off full h/c, but just going out and playing the game on a Saturday is enough for me. I'm playing against my last best round, trying to beat it with a card in my hand.
I see other golfers hitting pretty damned good shots then cursing because it comes up 10 feet short or wide of the green. I think they call this perfectionism. Nothing wrong with someone trying to perfect their game.
100+ yards out and I'm almost ecstatic if I land one on the green and mildly orgasmic if it rolls close to the pin!
With continued practise I hope to aspire to mid handicap next season (below 20 would do for now). If I win any comps between now and then, it will be down to me playing well, and certainly NOT banditry!!!
For the most part our comps, certainly medals and stablefords are divisionalised and so there is a level playing field. However as per most clubs, the big trophy events tend to be winner takes all and so it does fall at the mercy of a mid-high handicapper having a "season" day. However as the course is usually stiffened up with tougher pins etc it tends to balance out. Some big events are won by the high guy and some by the mid-low guy. I pays my money and takes my chance. If I have a decent day and get beat then fine, MY handicap will drop and I might still get a share of the pot for runner up.
Interestingly enough, our summer singles knockout this year was won by a 22 handicapper. I know he plays all the events and has come down from 27 this year already so certainly not a case of handicap protection etc. For all the crys of bandit, he could only win each match he played in (7 rounds I think). He'll be the first to admit he'll never see single figures but has 18 as his target and to be fair that's about right.
So is it a fair system or favour the highs, middles or lows. If I was going to hazard a guess then overall wouldn't the mid handicappers fair best as they can play a bit and still have quite a few shots to play with. High guys can shoot low and walk away with prizes but are they consistant enough. Again low guys can also shoot low and a level par off 4 or 5 still takes some beating by anyone else.
I don't think the CONGU system is ideal but personally I'd rather that than having to put a card in everytime. Surely that takes all the fun out of social golf and makes every event a competition round to some degree.
Interestingly enough, our summer singles knockout this year was won by a 22 handicapper. I know he plays all the events and has come down from 27 this year already so certainly not a case of handicap protection etc. For all the crys of bandit, he could only win each match he played in (7 rounds I think). He'll be the first to admit he'll never see single figures but has 18 as his target and to be fair that's about right.
So is it a fair system or favour the highs, middles or lows. If I was going to hazard a guess then overall wouldn't the mid handicappers fair best as they can play a bit and still have quite a few shots to play with. High guys can shoot low and walk away with prizes but are they consistant enough. Again low guys can also shoot low and a level par off 4 or 5 still takes some beating by anyone else.
I don't think the CONGU system is ideal but personally I'd rather that than having to put a card in everytime. Surely that takes all the fun out of social golf and makes every event a competition round to some degree.
