Ball Taken by Third Party

[Swango1980]

It would appear the "Expert" at NCG agrees with Rulefan on the general point.

Rules of Golf explained: Our expert says…

Turn your rule books open to 9.6 – ‘Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence’.

You need to know or be virtually certain it happened – seeing your ball being shifted clearly qualifies – but if your ball is lifted or moved by an outside influence, which includes another player in stroke play, there is no penalty.

You need to replace the ball on its original spot, or estimate if that isn’t known – like if you’re watching someone making eyes at it from 200 yards away.

What if they’ve nicked your ball? Firstly, restrain yourself. But never fear. This rule applies whether or not your ball has been found.

Now, you might have felt the bit about known or virtually certain at the start of this section was a little weird. After all, you’ve watched someone make off with your precious Titleist.

But what if you merely harboured suspicions? In that case, if it’s not known, or virtually certain, the ball was lifted or moved by an outside influence – and you couldn’t find it – then you’d have no other option but to take stroke-and-distance relief.

I agree with that, but not that this agrees with rulefans position on this specific case. The OP had more than suspicions.

If the OP had said the ball was hit over trees in the direction of an open fairway, but was not found when they got there as they expected, then I'd agree that it is not reasonable to assume someone nicked it. It might have clipped the top of a tree, or got a funky bounce and ended up where they didn't expect.

However, the OP said they saw the ball end up in a stationary position on the fairway. It disappeared by the time they got there. Therefore, as many have said, it could now be easily interpreted that the ball had been moved by an outside influence. Maybe it was another player. Maybe a dog ran on the course and nicked it. But, it had clearly been moved by something.

 

[rulefan]

Maybe it was another player. Maybe a dog ran on the course and nicked it. But, it had clearly been moved by something.

Maybe a natural force.
If nothing or nobody was seen, it is just as likely or unlikely.

 

[Swango1980]

Maybe a natural force.
If nothing or nobody was seen, it is just as likely or unlikely.

What natural force? A mini tornado perhaps?

 

[jim8flog]

It would appear the "Expert" at NCG agrees with Rulefan on the general point.

Rules of Golf explained: Our expert says…

Turn your rule books open to 9.6 – ‘Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence’.

You need to know or be virtually certain it happened – seeing your ball being shifted clearly qualifies – but if your ball is lifted or moved by an outside influence, which includes another player in stroke play, there is no penalty.

You need to replace the ball on its original spot, or estimate if that isn’t known – like if you’re watching someone making eyes at it from 200 yards away.

What if they’ve nicked your ball? Firstly, restrain yourself. But never fear. This rule applies whether or not your ball has been found.

Now, you might have felt the bit about known or virtually certain at the start of this section was a little weird. After all, you’ve watched someone make off with your precious Titleist.

But what if you merely harboured suspicions? In that case, if it’s not known, or virtually certain, the ball was lifted or moved by an outside influence – and you couldn’t find it – then you’d have no other option but to take stroke-and-distance relief.

A lot of faith in journalists then

 

[Deleted member 25172]

It would appear the "Expert" at NCG agrees with Rulefan on the general point.

Rules of Golf explained: Our expert says…

Turn your rule books open to 9.6 – ‘Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence’.

You need to know or be virtually certain it happened – seeing your ball being shifted clearly qualifies – but if your ball is lifted or moved by an outside influence, which includes another player in stroke play, there is no penalty.

You need to replace the ball on its original spot, or estimate if that isn’t known – like if you’re watching someone making eyes at it from 200 yards away.

What if they’ve nicked your ball? Firstly, restrain yourself. But never fear. This rule applies whether or not your ball has been found.

Now, you might have felt the bit about known or virtually certain at the start of this section was a little weird. After all, you’ve watched someone make off with your precious Titleist.

But what if you merely harboured suspicions? In that case, if it’s not known, or virtually certain, the ball was lifted or moved by an outside influence – and you couldn’t find it – then you’d have no other option but to take stroke-and-distance relief.

From my understanding, you and your playing partners could literally see the ball stationary on the adjacent fairway, is that correct? Not just seeing in which direction the ball had gone and you all agreed that it "should" be fine.

If correct, was the spot which the ball was stationary on heavily sloped giving any theoretical chance of the ball to roll away?

If no, were there any extreme weather conditions on the day that could, theoretically, have moved the ball?

If answer to that is no, then we're looking at a situation where either an outside element have moved the ball or you've found a truly magic place that should be of interest to the scientific community. If anyone argued that I take stroke and distances here I'd argue the onus is on them to find a "reasonable" explanation as to why the ball is no longer at the spot where it last was seen.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

From my understanding, you and your playing partners could literally see the ball stationary on the adjacent fairway, is that correct? Not just seeing in which direction the ball had gone and you all agreed that it "should" be fine.

If correct, was the spot which the ball was stationary on heavily sloped giving any theoretical chance of the ball to roll away?

If no, were there any extreme weather conditions on the day that could, theoretically, have moved the ball?

If answer to that is no, then we're looking at a situation where either an outside element have moved the ball or you've found a truly magic place that should be of interest to the scientific community. If anyone argued that I take stroke and distances here I'd argue the onus is on them to find a "reasonable" explanation as to why the ball is no longer at the spot where it last was seen.

Whilst Dorset is a truely magical place I don't think that was the problem.

I think it was a fictional detective that said if you remove all the other options you are left with the solution (paraphrase).

 

[Swinglowandslow]

It rather depends if it was known that there were outside agencies in the area. If none were seen how can KVC be claimed? Who or what moved it?

In the OP we don't know if the ball travelled over or through trees when the ball might have been out of sight for a second. The player believes or anticipates that ball continues on that path but in fact it is diverted and the player convinces himself that he can see it.

You are moving the goal posts. It is clear from the O P that the ball was seen to come to rest on the fairway. It had stopped. It was then seen to be where it was. So, your last paragraph is totally irrelevant.
Now, as Sherlock Holmes said...............?
What you are left with is movement by an outside agency. The exact nature of which is not required to be known, as I understand it.

 

[rulefan]

What you are left with is movement by an outside agency. The exact nature of which is not required to be known, as I understand it.

The term is now 'outside influence' but it does not include 'natural forces' so just what moved it could be significant.

 

[Swango1980]

The term is now 'outside influence' but it does not include 'natural forces' so just what moved it could be significant.

Tell us what natural forces could have moved the ball?

 

[rulefan]

Tell us what natural forces could have moved the ball?

My response to #47 was simply a clarification of the rule.
But to answer your question, wind, gravity and water.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

It would appear the "Expert" at NCG agrees with Rulefan on the general point.

Rules of Golf explained: Our expert says…

Turn your rule books open to 9.6 – ‘Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence’.

You need to know or be virtually certain it happened – seeing your ball being shifted clearly qualifies – but if your ball is lifted or moved by an outside influence, which includes another player in stroke play, there is no penalty.

You need to replace the ball on its original spot, or estimate if that isn’t known – like if you’re watching someone making eyes at it from 200 yards away.

What if they’ve nicked your ball? Firstly, restrain yourself. But never fear. This rule applies whether or not your ball has been found.

Now, you might have felt the bit about known or virtually certain at the start of this section was a little weird. After all, you’ve watched someone make off with your precious Titleist.

But what if you merely harboured suspicions? In that case, if it’s not known, or virtually certain, the ball was lifted or moved by an outside influence – and you couldn’t find it – then you’d have no other option but to take stroke-and-distance relief.

Don't agree Mike. It says you need to know OR be virtually certain.
It does not say certain. It says virtually certain. By definition, and the wording you quote, virtually certain is different ( less than ) from knowing.
And knowing is certain.
So, it is virtually certain . These situations arise, as in ball gone in water penalty area., not uncommonly.
Quite simply . If the ball was seen by you and others to be at rest on a fairway, and no wind or slope is involved, then ,though it is temporarily out of your sight, when you get there , there it is - gone ?.
Only one conclusion. It has been moved. It wasn't you . It must have been "an outside influence"
The laws of physics of this planet say so. Simple as.

 

[rulie]

At the risk of repeating, this is Rule 9.2. See the last two bullet points.
9.2 Deciding Whether Ball Moved and What Caused It to Move
9.2a Deciding Whether Ball Moved
A player’s ball at rest is treated as having moved only if it is known or virtually certain that it did.
If the ball might have moved but this is not known or virtually certain, it is treated as not having moved and must be played as it lies.
9.2b Deciding What Caused Ball to Move
When a player’s ball at rest has moved:

• It must be decided what caused it to move.
• This determines whether the player must replace the ball or play it as it lies and whether there is a penalty.

(1) Four Possible Causes. The Rules recognize only four possible causes for a ball at rest that moves before the player makes a stroke:

• Natural forces, such as wind or water (see Rule 9.3),
• The player, including the player’s caddie (see Rule 9.4),
• The opponent in match play, including the opponent's caddie (see Rule 9.5), or
• An outside influence, including any other player in stroke play (see Rule 9.6).

See Rules 22.2 (in Foursomes, either partner may act for the side and action by the partner is treated as action of the player); 23.5 (in Four-Ball, either partner may act for the side and action by the partner concerning the player’s ball or equipment is treated as action of the player).
(2) “Known or Virtually Certain” Standard for Deciding What Caused Ball to Move.

• The player, the opponent or an outside influence is treated as having caused the ball to move only if it is known or virtually certain to be the cause.
• If it is not known or virtually certain that at least one of these was the cause, the ball is treated as having been moved by natural forces.

In applying this standard, all reasonably available information must be considered, which means all information the player knows or can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonably delaying play.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

At the risk of repeating, this is Rule 9.2. See the last two bullet points.
9.2 Deciding Whether Ball Moved and What Caused It to Move
9.2a Deciding Whether Ball Moved
A player’s ball at rest is treated as having moved only if it is known or virtually certain that it did.
If the ball might have moved but this is not known or virtually certain, it is treated as not having moved and must be played as it lies.
9.2b Deciding What Caused Ball to Move
When a player’s ball at rest has moved:

• It must be decided what caused it to move.
• This determines whether the player must replace the ball or play it as it lies and whether there is a penalty.

(1) Four Possible Causes. The Rules recognize only four possible causes for a ball at rest that moves before the player makes a stroke:

• Natural forces, such as wind or water (see Rule 9.3),
• The player, including the player’s caddie (see Rule 9.4),
• The opponent in match play, including the opponent's caddie (see Rule 9.5), or
• An outside influence, including any other player in stroke play (see Rule 9.6).

See Rules 22.2 (in Foursomes, either partner may act for the side and action by the partner is treated as action of the player); 23.5 (in Four-Ball, either partner may act for the side and action by the partner concerning the player’s ball or equipment is treated as action of the player).
(2) “Known or Virtually Certain” Standard for Deciding What Caused Ball to Move.

• The player, the opponent or an outside influence is treated as having caused the ball to move only if it is known or virtually certain to be the cause.
• If it is not known or virtually certain that at least one of these was the cause, the ball is treated as having been moved by natural forces.

In applying this standard, all reasonably available information must be considered, which means all information the player knows or can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonably delaying play.

This is about a ball that may or may not have moved but is still in play:
This thread is about a ball that has disappeared.
Different scenario, and to which your rule above is not applicable.

 

[rulefan]

This is about a ball that may or may not have moved but is still in play:
This thread is about a ball that has disappeared.
Different scenario, and to which your rule above is not applicable.

If the ball is not where it was it must have been moved.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

If the ball is not where it was it must have been moved.

Yes....

But if the only conclusion possible is that it was by an outside influence, then no penalty.
It's disappearing is strong evidence of that as there were multiple witnesses to the ball being at rest on the fairway.
If the only person to see it at rest on the fairway was the ball player, then that wouldn't be enough evidence. ( mistake, wishful thinking, trying it on etc)
But the evidence in this case is overwhelming of " virtually certain"

If the rule makers wanted it to have to be certain, or known, that it was an outside influence, they would not have included " virtually certain".