Ball Taken by Third Party

[mikejohnchapman]

We have a few places on our course where a wayward tee shot can land on an adjoining fairway. Sadly in a couple of cases recently when going to retrieve the ball it has disappeared and when the group playing the other hole have been asked they denied any knowledge of moving / taking the ball which is deeply frustrating.

I appreciate that Rule 9.6 applies and in most cases a stroke and penalty applies as nobody was seen to take or play the ball. However, my question relates to the known or virtually certain test.

If the ball was hit onto the other fairway and came to rest and was clearly visible from the tee can it be claimed to be KoVC that if the ball then can't be found it has been moved / taken by an outside influence even if you don't see them do it?

There are many trees / bushes that can obscure the other fairway on the walk from the tee to the fairway but don't obstruct the original view of the flight and destination of the ball.

A sad question in many ways but it has happened too often recently not to consider the situation.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

If the ball can be seen from the tee and it then disappears, it can only be outside influences.
Yes a sad state of affairs
But it could have been a bird, ask @Imurg about Red Kites ?

 

[Slab]

While you know (in all likelihood) what’s happened to your ball I’m not sure that its enough for virtual certainty i'm afraid
If it was allowed in this case then Players could then use that same rule if it was plugged and just not visible from close up or just into 1st cut and hidden from view at the new angle, sitting in a sprinkler head/drain cover even

We’ve all lost balls that we’d swear under oath were on the fairway but are nowhere to be seen when we get there (some of them will still on the fairway in a small depression or hollow)

Better to target the behavior of the pilfering ejits through signage and education so that they don’t lift balls where fairways are adjacent i.e they should use KoVC ; so before they lift it they need to ask themselves if it could be someone else’s ball in play, if in doubt leave the bloomin thing alone

 

[Swango1980]

While you know (in all likelihood) what’s happened to your ball I’m not sure that its enough for virtual certainty i'm afraid
If it was allowed in this case then Players could then use that same rule if it was plugged and just not visible from close up or just into 1st cut and hidden from view at the new angle, sitting in a sprinkler head/drain cover even

We’ve all lost balls that we’d swear under oath were on the fairway but are nowhere to be seen when we get there (some of them will still on the fairway in a small depression or hollow)

Better to target the behavior of the pilfering ejits through signage and education so that they don’t lift balls where fairways are adjacent i.e they should use KoVC ; so before they lift it they need to ask themselves if it could be someone else’s ball in play, if in doubt leave the bloomin thing alone

It depends on the situation though. If it is absolutely clear that the ball is in the middle of an adjacent fairway and at rest, if it then vanishes what other explanation would there be except it was moved by an outside influence? For example, what if you smash it down the middle of your own fairway, you walk down the fairway, and 5 yards from your ball set your bag down, and go into the trees and help look for another player's ball. If you then come back out, and find your ball has disappeared, when it was clearly there beforehand, would the ball be declared lost?

 

[jim8flog]

If the ball was hit onto the other fairway and came to rest and was clearly visible from the tee can it be claimed to be KoVC that if the ball then can't be found it has been moved / taken by an outside influence even if you don't see them do it?

.

To me this circumstance would fit the KoVC

However there was a ruling in a ET Comp in China some years ago . Sam Torrance had played his ball to the middle of the fairway (known and certain) by the time he got there unseen by anybody the ball had disappeared, presumed to have been picked up by a spectator and he was made to take stroke and distance.

 

[Robster59]

In my mind, unless you physically see someone pick up your ball and take or move it, then you cannot assume it has been. As has been said, it's the way it is, and I've walked down a fairway to where I could swear my ball was and couldn't find it. And there was nobody around.

 

[Colin L]

While you know (in all likelihood) what’s happened to your ball I’m not sure that its enough for virtual certainty i'm afraid
If it was allowed in this case then Players could then use that same rule if it was plugged and just not visible from close up or just into 1st cut and hidden from view at the new angle, sitting in a sprinkler head/drain cover even
We’ve all lost balls that we’d swear under oath were on the fairway but are nowhere to be seen when we get there (some of them will still on the fairway in a small depression or hollow).....

I think you are describing different situations from the one Mike has given us. If, as I took it, they had watched the flight of the ball all the way to where they saw the ball at rest on the fairway, the ball was not there when they reached the area and there were other players around - or birds - who could well have taken it by mistake, I would accept that as virtual certainty the ball had been taken.

Think about your plugged ball. If the ball was plugged and not visible from close up, how was it visible from where it was played?

 

[Swango1980]

In my mind, unless you physically see someone pick up your ball and take or move it, then you cannot assume it has been. As has been said, it's the way it is, and I've walked down a fairway to where I could swear my ball was and couldn't find it. And there was nobody around.

However, it is different saying you couldn't find your ball where you could have sworn it would have been (i.e. thought it was there), compared to knowing for a fact it was there because you physically saw it there. Sure, if it was on the side of a slope, it could have well started rolling again into some garbage. But, if a player saw their ball on a flat piece of fairway, and then it wasn't there when they arrived at that spot, then it has almost certainly been moved by an outside influence.

I have not been able to find my ball at times when I arrived at the spot where I could have sworn the ball would be. However, I couldn't say it must have been moved by an outside influence, because it could have clipped a tree, or taken a funky bounce. So, ball is lost. But, if I saw it come to rest, then that would be a different matter.

 

[Slab]

all

I think you are describing different situations from the one Mike has given us. If, as I took it, they had watched the flight of the ball all the way to where they saw the ball at rest on the fairway, the ball was not there when they reached the area and there were other players around - or birds - who could well have taken it by mistake, I would accept that as virtual certainty the ball had been taken.

Think about your plugged ball. If the ball was plugged and not visible from close up, how was it visible from where it was played?

I see your point. I felt that the presence of players/birds in conjunction with being unable to locate a ball that you only had intermittent line of sight of) still left other (plausible) possible reasons what might have happened to the ball i.e sitting behind a small bump in the fairway

So to me if the sole evidence of a ball being taken is the very presence of a 3rd party then that wasn't enough. So while it makes it likely even probable that they took it, to me fell short of virtual certainty

I think if i had that scenario and told the rest of the group that one of those crows over there made off with my ball just when we ducked behind that tree (citing that its happened several times) they'd not be too inclined to agree with me but I guess they're judged on case by case basis too

 

[Slab]

Maybe it would be useful to know what ratio of players, on seeing an unattended ball on a fairway, would pick it up, keep it, and when asked if they picked it up they’d deny having done so?

Would that then be used to correlate to the virtual certainty. So if say 8/10 people said they would pick up a ball in plain sight from a fairway and when questioned they’d deny having picked it up then its virtual certain that’s what happened to the ball… however if only 1 or 2 players in 10 would admit they’d do that, how can it be virtually certain if most folks wouldn't do it

I feel a poll is needed

 

[Colin L]

I'm certainly not suggesting that the presence of other players or birds or foxes or urchins from the neighbouring estate is enough. If that were the case, I'd never have another lost ball.

My main point is that Mike is talking, I understand, about a ball which was watched in flight, seen to come to rest in a particular spot and visible after it came to rest. It is thus identifiable and its location is known but it isn't there when the players reach the spot.

 

[Swango1980]

Maybe it would be useful to know what ratio of players, on seeing an unattended ball on a fairway, would pick it up, keep it, and when asked if they picked it up they’d deny having done so?

Would that then be used to correlate to the virtual certainty. So if say 8/10 people said they would pick up a ball in plain sight from a fairway and when questioned they’d deny having picked it up then its virtual certain that’s what happened to the ball… however if only 1 or 2 players in 10 would admit they’d do that, how can it be virtually certain if most folks wouldn't do it

I feel a poll is needed

But, if the ball was seen stationary in the middle of the fairway. Then, it vanished by the time the player got there, what other possibility is there that anything but an outside agency moved the ball? You do not need 95%+ of people to pick up an unattended ball on the fairway, because 95%+ of the time you could find your ball no problem. It only takes 1 time out of many for this to happen, at which point this situation arises. At that point, you may have found the 1% of golfers who will pick up a ball and not admit it. You cannot say that, because only 1% of golfers do this, then you can never be virtually certain that the ball was moved by an outside agency.

You hit your approach to a par 3 green, you see it land on the green and you see it come to rest. The approach to the green requires the player to walk downhill, then uphill, so the green is not visible in between. Get to the green, ball not there. However, it was quite clearly stationary on the green when player left tee box. So, unless there is a huge slope on the green that ball could have rolled down, then I'd imagine all players in the group could be at least 95% certain an outside agency has moved it. Whether it be another player, naughty child, bird, dog, etc.

 

[Slab]

But, if the ball was seen stationary in the middle of the fairway. Then, it vanished by the time the player got there, what other possibility is there that anything but an outside agency moved the ball? You do not need 95%+ of people to pick up an unattended ball on the fairway, because 95%+ of the time you could find your ball no problem. It only takes 1 time out of many for this to happen, at which point this situation arises. At that point, you may have found the 1% of golfers who will pick up a ball and not admit it. You cannot say that, because only 1% of golfers do this, then you can never be virtually certain that the ball was moved by an outside agency.

You hit your approach to a par 3 green, you see it land on the green and you see it come to rest. The approach to the green requires the player to walk downhill, then uphill, so the green is not visible in between. Get to the green, ball not there. However, it was quite clearly stationary on the green when player left tee box. So, unless there is a huge slope on the green that ball could have rolled down, then I'd imagine all players in the group could be at least 95% certain an outside agency has moved it. Whether it be another player, naughty child, bird, dog, etc.

Sorry I was just having a bit of fun with that post & having a dig at the supposed honesty and integrity badge a lot of people like to award the folks who play golf
(but as the OP says "it has happened too often" so maybe we're not really talking about 1% )

 

[Swango1980]

Sorry I was just having a bit of fun with that post & having a dig at the supposed honesty and integrity badge a lot of people like to award the folks who play golf
(but as the OP says "it has happened too often" so maybe we're not really talking about 1% )

Too right, especially at my place. About 200 members don't even have a handicap, they just like to turn up and smack a ball with their mates. They'd happily pick up any random ball without thinking twice. Even if it was an old, scuffed Top Flite

 

[rulefan]

But, if the ball was seen stationary in the middle of the fairway. Then, it vanished by the time the player got there, what other possibility is there that anything but an outside agency moved the ball?

It rather depends if it was known that there were outside agencies in the area. If none were seen how can KVC be claimed? Who or what moved it?

In the OP we don't know if the ball travelled over or through trees when the ball might have been out of sight for a second. The player believes or anticipates that ball continues on that path but in fact it is diverted and the player convinces himself that he can see it.

 

[rulie]

Here's a scenario from a tour - player hits a ball into a wooded area with a few spectators around. The ground under the trees is bare, ie no shrubs or bushes. Player and caddie arrive at the area and no ball cannot be found within three minutes of searching. A child returns to the area after four minutes with the player's ball, admitting that he picked it up and left with it, then felt guilty and returned the ball.
What is the ruling?

 

[Swango1980]

It rather depends if it was known that there were outside agencies in the area. If none were seen how can KVC be claimed? Who or what moved it?

In the OP we don't know if the ball travelled over or through trees when the ball might have been out of sight for a second. The player believes or anticipates that ball continues on that path but in fact it is diverted and the player convinces himself that he can see it.

The OP said this:

"If the ball was hit onto the other fairway and came to rest and was clearly visible from the tee"

I have assumed that the player saw the stationary ball on the adjacent fairway, as per that post.

 

[Swango1980]

Here's a scenario from a tour - player hits a ball into a wooded area with a few spectators around. The ground under the trees is bare, ie no shrubs or bushes. Player and caddie arrive at the area and no ball cannot be found within three minutes of searching. A child returns to the area after four minutes with the player's ball, admitting that he picked it up and left with it, then felt guilty and returned the ball.
What is the ruling?

So, I would double check the rule book if this actually happened to me, but will answer on instinct:

I assume the ball is lost, simply because it was not found in 3 minutes. It becomes lost at that point, as it was not virtually certain the ball was moved by a 3rd party. This only became appparent after the ball was officially lost.

I think this is similar to a previous topic, where another player in your group hits your ball before you identify it. You then cannot find your ball (as it is no longer there), and the issue is only realised once you get to green and the other guy realises he hit your ball. Too bad on your part, your ball was still lost even though the other player's actions meant you could never identify it.

 

[Whereditgo]

So, I would double check the rule book if this actually happened to me, but will answer on instinct:

I assume the ball is lost, simply because it was not found in 3 minutes. It becomes lost at that point, as it was not virtually certain the ball was moved by a 3rd party. This only became appparent after the ball was officially lost.

I think this is similar to a previous topic, where another player in your group hits your ball before you identify it. You then cannot find your ball (as it is no longer there), and the issue is only realised once you get to green and the other guy realises he hit your ball. Too bad on your part, your ball was still lost even though the other player's actions meant you could never identify it.

Yep - Stroke and distance. (and a strop!)

 

[mikejohnchapman]

It rather depends if it was known that there were outside agencies in the area. If none were seen how can KVC be claimed? Who or what moved it?

In the OP we don't know if the ball travelled over or through trees when the ball might have been out of sight for a second. The player believes or anticipates that ball continues on that path but in fact it is diverted and the player convinces himself that he can see it.

As an example to help clarify the question. The player was the first to hit his tee shot. It went onto the adjacent fairway and was clearly at rest. The rest of the group then teed off and walked forward. On the other fairway a group were playing their shots. We didn't even go to look for the our playing partners ball as it was so obvious where it was.

When he got there the ball had gone. He challenged the other group to ask if they had played the wrong ball - they denied it. He also asked if they had picked it up in error assuming it was lost and again they denied it.

The ball was very clearly marked with a thick blue wavy line so very difficult to argue it was a case of mistaken identity.

The nett effect was he had to go back to the tee under penalty but it also ruined an enjoyable round for him.

For the avoidance of doubt, if the ball had gone onto another fairway but was not clearly visible I have no issue with a S&D penalty.