Ball Taken by Third Party

[rulie]

As an example to help clarify the question. The player was the first to hit his tee shot. It went onto the adjacent fairway and was clearly at rest. The rest of the group then teed off and walked forward. On the other fairway a group was playing their shots. We didn't even go to look for the our playing partners ball as it was so obvious where it was.

When he got there the ball had gone. He challenged the other group to ask if they had played the wrong ball - they denied it. He also asked if they had picked it up in error assuming it was lost and again they denied it.

The ball was very clearly marked with a thick blue wavy line so very difficult to argue it was a case of mistaken identity.

The nett effect was he had to go back to the tee under penalty but it also ruined an enjoyable round for him.

For the avoidance of doubt, if the ball had gone onto another fairway but was not clearly visible I have no issue with a S&D penalty.

Well, he did proceed correctly under the unfortunate circumstances.

 

[rulefan]

The OP said this:

"If the ball was hit onto the other fairway and came to rest and was clearly visible from the tee"

I have assumed that the player saw the stationary ball on the adjacent fairway, as per that post.

What evidence is there to give virtual certainty that someone or something took the bal?. Who or what was even seen to be in the vicinity?

 

[Swango1980]

What evidence is there to give virtual certainty that someone or something took the bal?. Who or what was even seen to be in the vicinity?

Are you saying, if I walk to my ball, put my bag right next to it, go and help someone else look for theirs, and then when I get back my ball has disappeared, I need to take stroke and distance?

 

[williamalex1]

There was a local rule at the now defunct Blairbeth GC in Castlemilk.
When playing their uphill 18th if your ball disappeared after it was seen to hit the fairway above , you got a free drop , the local yobs would regularly hang about and steal balls, while you climbed up the hill ball out of sight.
Not sure what rule was used, but it happened to us during a team match many years ago.
We won the match, after a dispute but that's another story

 

[rulefan]

Are you saying, if I walk to my ball, put my bag right next to it, go and help someone else look for theirs, and then when I get back my ball has disappeared, I need to take stroke and distance?

What evidence have you got?

The Rules recognize only four possible causes for a ball at rest that moves before the player makes a stroke:

• Natural forces, such as wind or water (see Rule 9.3),
• The player, including the player’s caddie (see Rule 9.4),
• The opponent in match play, including the opponent’s caddie (see Rule 9.5), or
• An outside influence, including any other player in stroke play (see Rule 9.6).

“Known or Virtually Certain” Standard for Deciding What Caused Ball to Move.

• The player, the opponent or an outside influence is treated as having caused the ball to move only if it is known or virtually certain: The standard for deciding what happened to a player’s ball – for example, whether the ball came to rest in a penalty area, whether it moved or what caused it to move.(...Continued) to be the cause.
• If it is not known or virtually certain that at least one of these was the cause, the ball is treated as having been moved by natural forces.

In applying this standard, all reasonably available information must be considered, which means all information the player knows or can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonably delaying play.

 

[Swango1980]

What evidence have you got?

The Rules recognize only four possible causes for a ball at rest that moves before the player makes a stroke:

• Natural forces, such as wind or water (see Rule 9.3),
• The player, including the player’s caddie (see Rule 9.4),
• The opponent in match play, including the opponent’s caddie (see Rule 9.5), or
• An outside influence, including any other player in stroke play (see Rule 9.6).

“Known or Virtually Certain” Standard for Deciding What Caused Ball to Move.

• The player, the opponent or an outside influence is treated as having caused the ball to move only if it is known or virtually certain: The standard for deciding what happened to a player’s ball – for example, whether the ball came to rest in a penalty area, whether it moved or what caused it to move.(...Continued) to be the cause.
• If it is not known or virtually certain that at least one of these was the cause, the ball is treated as having been moved by natural forces.

In applying this standard, all reasonably available information must be considered, which means all information the player knows or can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonably delaying play.

But, the player IS virtually certain the ball was moved by an outside influence. There is no requirement for them to physically see this happen either.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

But, the player IS virtually certain the ball was moved by an outside influence. There is no requirement for them to physically see this happen either.

Unless you’ve stepped into a parallel universe where the laws of physics doesn’t apply and golf balls on flat surfaces and in regular conditions (not blowing a storm) can travel far and wide after coming to rest?

Have you factored in that possibility?

 

[salfordlad]

Well, he did proceed correctly under the unfortunate circumstances.

Nonsense. That was 9.6, replace no penalty, no requirement to take S&D. Ball seen to come to rest in neighbouring fairway, absent any clear slope/wind type of natural forces at play, certainly meets the KVC test.

 

[rulefan]

But, the player IS virtually certain the ball was moved by an outside influence. There is no requirement for them to physically see this happen either.

So where were the miscreants that caused the ball to disappear? When were these people or crows seen?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So where were the miscreants that caused the ball to disappear? When were these people or crows seen?

See this where the difference is between someone who plays and someone who rules

Are you suggesting that someone walks up to his ball , sees it under his nose , parks the trolley , then goes over to help his playing partner search for a ball for a couple of mins , comes back - ball has gone - you wouldn’t allow him to drop one there and make him go and play S & D ?

 

[Swango1980]

So where were the miscreants that caused the ball to disappear? When were these people or crows seen?

The entire point of having "virtually certain" defined in the rules is to account for the fact a player does not require 100% certainty, and the act does not necessarily HAVE to be seen. They simply need to be happy that it is extremely probable (95%+ certain). In the OP, it was explained there were other players in the region the ball was seen to be. In my example, it was also certain where my ball was, and highly probably that it was not whisked away by natural forces when I went to help others look for their ball. Yet, you are not satisfied that the ball in all likelihood was moved by an outside influence?

Based on the OP's account, and trusting that hey saw the ball come to rest on the other fairway, I would be happy for them to assume the ball had been moved by an outside influence. I couldn't argue that it could have been moved by natural forces, the player or caddy, or the opponent if match play.

 

[salfordlad]

So where were the miscreants that caused the ball to disappear? When were these people or crows seen?

Feel free to quote the rule reference that requires the miscreant/crow to be seen before 9.6 applies.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

So where were the miscreants that caused the ball to disappear? When were these people or crows seen?

errr.... as I said there was a group of players playing the hole where the ball came to rest. The problem was they denied playing or lifting the ball at rest but had no explanation as to where it had gone to.

 

[rulefan]

errr.... as I said there was a group of players playing the hole where the ball came to rest. The problem was they denied playing or lifting the ball at rest but had no explanation as to where it had gone to.

" However, my question .............
If the ball was hit onto the other fairway and came to rest and was clearly visible from the tee can it be claimed to be KoVC that if the ball then can't be found it has been moved / taken by an outside influence even if you don't see them do it? "

The question made no reference to other players being in the vicinity. That is the specific situation I am addressing.
If there had been people or animals about my answer would be different

 

[Deleted member 25172]

" However, my question .............
If the ball was hit onto the other fairway and came to rest and was clearly visible from the tee can it be claimed to be KoVC that if the ball then can't be found it has been moved / taken by an outside influence even if you don't see them do it? "

The question made no reference to other players being in the vicinity. That is the specific situation I am addressing.
If there had been people or animals about my answer would be different

I’m one of many who do appreciate your posts about anything that comes to rules, but in this instance you’re being obstinate.

Mike has since his first post clarified that there was other players in the area, which, since you’ve been reading the thread, is or should be aware of.

But same goes for Swangos post regarding leaving the bag by his ball and returning with the ball disappeared. If you had told me to take S&D during those circumstances I probably would’ve told you to do a two-worder that ends with “off”.

 

[rulefan]

I’m one of many who do appreciate your posts about anything that comes to rules, but in this instance you’re being obstinate.

Mike has since his first post clarified that there was other players in the area, which, since you’ve been reading the thread, is or should be aware of.

But same goes for Swangos post regarding leaving the bag by his ball and returning with the ball disappeared. If you had told me to take S&D during those circumstances I probably would’ve told you to do a two-worder that ends with “off”.

Since the OP I have made it clear that my responses relate to situations where there were no people in evidence. So how can someone claim they know the ball was moved by an outside influence. In the right weather conditions I would be happier with 9.3.

Edit: This topic is almost impossible to resolve without being there.

 

[williamalex1]

I’m one of many who do appreciate your posts about anything that comes to rules, but in this instance you’re being obstinate.

Mike has since his first post clarified that there was other players in the area, which, since you’ve been reading the thread, is or should be aware of.

But same goes for Swangos post regarding leaving the bag by his ball and returning with the ball disappeared. If you had told me to take S&D during those circumstances I probably would’ve told you to do a two-worder that ends with “off”.

What's that in Swedish

 

[Deleted member 25172]

What's that in Swedish

I’ll give you all on Sunday if you’re coming for the whippersnappers v old farts

 

[williamalex1]

I’ll give you all on Sunday if you’re coming for the whippersnappers v old farts

Sadly I couldn't make it this year , enjoy and say hello to the gang
Years ago I was working alongside a Polish Joiner, he hit his thumb with his hammer and yelled in Polish "Oh ya ******."
I knew exactly what he was saying .

 

[mikejohnchapman]

It would appear the "Expert" at NCG agrees with Rulefan on the general point.

Rules of Golf explained: Our expert says…

Turn your rule books open to 9.6 – ‘Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence’.

You need to know or be virtually certain it happened – seeing your ball being shifted clearly qualifies – but if your ball is lifted or moved by an outside influence, which includes another player in stroke play, there is no penalty.

You need to replace the ball on its original spot, or estimate if that isn’t known – like if you’re watching someone making eyes at it from 200 yards away.

What if they’ve nicked your ball? Firstly, restrain yourself. But never fear. This rule applies whether or not your ball has been found.

Now, you might have felt the bit about known or virtually certain at the start of this section was a little weird. After all, you’ve watched someone make off with your precious Titleist.

But what if you merely harboured suspicions? In that case, if it’s not known, or virtually certain, the ball was lifted or moved by an outside influence – and you couldn’t find it – then you’d have no other option but to take stroke-and-distance relief.