Ball moved by outside influence during downswing

[cliveb]

P!aying today, one of my PPs hit a wild hook onto an adjacent fairway.
It actually hit the ball of a player on that other hole as he was about to play his shot.
(We did call fore, and he wasn't actually in the process of swinging his club).

But it prompted the hypothetical question: suppose he had actually been in his downswing when his ball was knocked away, and he couldn't stop, leading to an air shot? What would be the ruling?

 

[rulefan]

P!aying today, one of my PPs hit a wild hook onto an adjacent fairway.
It actually hit the ball of a player on that other hole as he was about to play his shot.
(We did call fore, and he wasn't actually in the process of swinging his club).

But it prompted the hypothetical question: suppose he had actually been in his downswing when his ball was knocked away, and he couldn't stop, leading to an air shot? What would be the ruling?

9.1b. What to Do When Ball Moves During Backswing or Stroke​

If a player’s ball at rest begins moving after the player has begun the stroke or the backswing for a stroke and the player goes on to make the stroke:

the ball must not be replaced, no matter what caused it to move.
Instead, the player must play the ball from where it comes to rest after the stroke.
There is no penalty

 

[Slab]

9.1b. What to Do When Ball Moves During Backswing or Stroke​

If a player’s ball at rest begins moving after the player has begun the stroke or the backswing for a stroke and the player goes on to make the stroke:

the ball must not be replaced, no matter what caused it to move.
Instead, the player must play the ball from where it comes to rest after the stroke.
There is no penalty

And the air-shot still counts as a stroke yes?

 

[cliveb]

9.1b. What to Do When Ball Moves During Backswing or Stroke​

If a player’s ball at rest begins moving after the player has begun the stroke or the backswing for a stroke and the player goes on to make the stroke:

the ball must not be replaced, no matter what caused it to move.
Instead, the player must play the ball from where it comes to rest after the stroke.
There is no penalty

Thanks.
It strikes me that it would be a bit harsh if the ball gets knocked into a worse spot (eg. into a bunker or penalty area). And what if the ball had been knocked out of bounds?

 

[cliveb]

And the air-shot still counts as a stroke yes?

Crikey I would hope not!

 

[Colin L]

Crikey I would hope not!

It does. And what's more, if the player has caused the ball to move, there's the penalty for that in addition.

 

[cliveb]

It does.

Ouch, that's so unfair. Yes, I know there are plenty of golf rules that seem unfair, but that just takes the biscuit. Aren't the rules supposed to be based on the concept of equity? Where's the equity in that?

 

[Slab]

Ouch, that's so unfair. Yes, I know there are plenty of golf rules that seem unfair, but that just takes the biscuit. Aren't the rules supposed to be based on the concept of equity? Where's the equity in that?

I think the only way to avoid it counting is if the player makes some kind of effort to abort/avoid completing a "stroke" mid-swing ('stroke' as defined in Rules)

 

[rulefan]

Crikey I would hope not!

Only if he makes a stroke

 

[backwoodsman]

Can someone who knows more about rules than me comment on ....
a) Is not rule 9.1b somewhat in conflict with rule 9.6.
b) If not, shed some light on why?

My confusion arises from the fact that rule 9.6 seems reasonably absolute & doesn’t say anything like '...unless the player has started playing a shot ...'

 

[Slab]

Can someone who knows more about rules than me comment on ....
a) Is not rule 9.1b somewhat in conflict with rule 9.6.
b) If not, shed some light on why?

My confusion arises from the fact that rule 9.6 seems reasonably absolute & doesn’t say anything like '...unless the player has started playing a shot ...'

No expert but I’d like to take a stab at it

9.6 is in itself an exception to Rule 9 Play the ball as it lies, and 9.6 covers only what happens when it moves specifically by outside influence
So 9.6 doesn’t need to include all previously noted exceptions to Rule 9 such as 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.4 & 9.5

 

[Colin L]

Thanks.
It strikes me that it would be a bit harsh if the ball gets knocked into a worse spot (eg. into a bunker or penalty area). And what if the ball had been knocked out of bounds?

A worse spot? Harsh but tough. Out of bounds? Harsh but tough. But don't forget that the Definition of a stroke excludes a downswing that is stopped or which is changed in order to miss the ball:

But a stroke has not been made if the player:

• Decides during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball or, if unable to stop, by deliberately missing the ball.

Notice the two uses of deliberately. Accidentally missing the ball because it has moved from where it was when you started isn't exempt.

 

[cliveb]

Ok, I now understand what the rules say.

But nobody has yet explained why if someone is in their downswing and an outside agency knocks their ball away resulting in an air shot, having to count that shot is equitable wrt the rest of the field. Come on rules experts, give us the rationale.

 

[rulefan]

Ok, I now understand what the rules say.

But nobody has yet explained why if someone is in their downswing and an outside agency knocks their ball away resulting in an air shot, having to count that shot is equitable wrt the rest of the field. Come on rules experts, give us the rationale.

I reckon the rule makers assumed there would be sufficient time to take avoiding action but if the clubhead is only 6" away ???? Hmm

 

[cliveb]

If a ball is moved by outside influence during someone's downswing and they can't stop, resulting in an air shot, the shot still counts as a stroke.

I said I already understand that.

I'm asking for an explanation as to why the R&A and USGA think it's equitable.

 

[Orikoru]

Ok, I now understand what the rules say.

But nobody has yet explained why if someone is in their downswing and an outside agency knocks their ball away resulting in an air shot, having to count that shot is equitable wrt the rest of the field. Come on rules experts, give us the rationale.

Imagine taking a swing and your mate lunges forward and hooks the ball away with his wedge, you hit fresh air and it counts as a shot. A new way to win a hole in match play anyway.

 

[nickjdavis]

Imagine taking a swing and your mate lunges forward and hooks the ball away with his wedge, you hit fresh air and it counts as a shot. A new way to win a hole in match play anyway.

Your opponent would receive a penalty for moving your ball.

 

[Steven Rules]

Imagine taking a swing and your mate lunges forward and hooks the ball away with his wedge, you hit fresh air and it counts as a shot. A new way to win a hole in match play anyway.

Rule 1.2a

...the Committee may disqualify a player for acting contrary to the spirit of the game if it finds that the player has committed serious misconduct.
“Serious misconduct” is player behaviour that is so far removed from what is expected in golf that the most severe sanction of removing a player from the competition is justified.

 

[Steven Rules]

Ok, I now understand what the rules say.

But nobody has yet explained why if someone is in their downswing and an outside agency knocks their ball away resulting in an air shot, having to count that shot is equitable wrt the rest of the field. Come on rules experts, give us the rationale.

This is very hypothetical.

Have you ever heard of this happening? Has anybody ever heard of this happening? I haven't.

During the 1.2 seconds or thereabouts of the backswing and stroke, another ball knocks the player’s ball away and the player is unable to abort the stroke.

I estimate there are billions of strokes made worldwide every year. How often might this happen? Once? Never?

There are bigger issues in the Rules to resolve or improve than this one. I personally won't be expending too much energy being indignant over how this scenario is treated under the Rules.

 

[Swango1980]

I said I already understand that.

I'm asking for an explanation as to why the R&A and USGA think it's equitable.

Maybe the R&A thought it was so remote that it wasn't really worth worrying about?

I've played quite a few thousand rounds of golf. This has never ever happened to me. It has never ever happened to anybody I've ever played with. I've never heard anybody ever discuss it happening to anybody else.