Outside influence removes loose impediment....

[golfa]

The final 2 rounds of our Club Champs was last weekend. Here's the scenario.

2nd hole. Short downhill par 3. Severe slope left of the green with lots of broken gum tree branches and sticks littering the ground. Player hits his ball into the area left of the green. He found his ball but it is resting against a stick about 2 feet long and as thick as a person's thumb. If he moves the stick, the ball will roll down the slope closer to the hole. His Marker comes over and they have a bit of a chat (in a foreign language, so I cannot attest to what was said.) The Marker then bent over and removed the stick. The ball rolled closer to the hole and the Player immediately bent over and replaced it. How it remained in place without the sick is beyond me. I and the other player in the 4 looked at each other and I said, "I don't know what's going on there but SOMEONE deserves a 2 shot penalty." He agreed.

A few holes later one of the Competition/Rules Officials drove up in a cart (to speed up play !) and I told him what had gone on. I relayed what happened and he thought that by NOT replacing the stick, the Player had "improved his lie" and that incurs a 2 shot penalty. He drove off seeking some clarification from another Rules person. I spoke to the other Rules official at the changeover between the 9th and 10 hole and he agreed with the first opinion I got.

However, when the round was over, the Head of the Rules Committee decided that no rule was broken. The fact that the Player's Marker had moved the stick causing the ball to move, the Marker was an "outside influence" and the player had replaced the ball. No penalty. The fact that it was resting against a stick has no bearing and the stick doesn't have to be replaced. Everyone involved accepted the decision (begrudgingly by some and happily by the Player and his Marker.)

Here's my problem with the Decision. This now means that anytime someone else's ball comes to rest against a stick or a rock, I can wander over, remove the stick or rock and as long as the Player replaces the ball, no penalty ? I call bullshit.

 

[Steven Rules]

The final 2 rounds of our Club Champs was last weekend. Here's the scenario.

2nd hole. Short downhill par 3. Severe slope left of the green with lots of broken gum tree branches and sticks littering the ground. Player hits his ball into the area left of the green. He found his ball but it is resting against a stick about 2 feet long and as thick as a person's thumb. If he moves the stick, the ball will roll down the slope closer to the hole. His Marker comes over and they have a bit of a chat (in a foreign language, so I cannot attest to what was said.) The Marker then bent over and removed the stick. The ball rolled closer to the hole and the Player immediately bent over and replaced it. How it remained in place without the sick is beyond me. I and the other player in the 4 looked at each other and I said, "I don't know what's going on there but SOMEONE deserves a 2 shot penalty." He agreed.

A few holes later one of the Competition/Rules Officials drove up in a cart (to speed up play !) and I told him what had gone on. I relayed what happened and he thought that by NOT replacing the stick, the Player had "improved his lie" and that incurs a 2 shot penalty. He drove off seeking some clarification from another Rules person. I spoke to the other Rules official at the changeover between the 9th and 10 hole and he agreed with the first opinion I got.

However, when the round was over, the Head of the Rules Committee decided that no rule was broken. The fact that the Player's Marker had moved the stick causing the ball to move, the Marker was an "outside influence" and the player had replaced the ball. No penalty. The fact that it was resting against a stick has no bearing and the stick doesn't have to be replaced. Everyone involved accepted the decision (begrudgingly by some and happily by the Player and his Marker.)

Here's my problem with the Decision. This now means that anytime someone else's ball comes to rest against a stick or a rock, I can wander over, remove the stick or rock and as long as the Player replaces the ball, no penalty ? I call bullshit.

I'd be looking very closely at Rule 1.2a:

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play. ..... the Committee may disqualify a player for acting contrary to the spirit of the game if it finds that the player has committed serious misconduct.

And Rule 1.3c:

A penalty also applies when.....Another person takes an action that would breach the Rules if taken by the player or caddie and that person does so at the player’s request or while acting with the player’s authority

And Interpretation 1.3c(1)/1:

Action of Another Person Breaches a Rule For Player

A player is responsible when another person's action breaches a Rule with respect to the player if it is done at the player's request or if the player sees the action and allows it.

Examples of when a player gets the penalty because he or she requested or allowed the action include:

A player asks a spectator to move a loose impediment near his or her ball. If the ball moves the player gets one penalty stroke under Rule 9.4b (Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Ball or Causing It to Move) and ball must be replaced.

 

[golfa]

I'd be looking very closely at Rule 1.2a:

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play. ..... the Committee may disqualify a player for acting contrary to the spirit of the game if it finds that the player has committed serious misconduct.

And Rule 1.3c:

A penalty also applies when.....Another person takes an action that would breach the Rules if taken by the player or caddie and that person does so at the player’s request or while acting with the player’s authority

And Interpretation 1.3c(1)/1:

Action of Another Person Breaches a Rule For Player

A player is responsible when another person's action breaches a Rule with respect to the player if it is done at the player's request or if the player sees the action and allows it.

Examples of when a player gets the penalty because he or she requested or allowed the action include:

A player asks a spectator to move a loose impediment near his or her ball. If the ball moves the player gets one penalty stroke under Rule 9.4b (Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Ball or Causing It to Move) and ball must be replaced.

I agree. However there was no way for us to know if any request took place because they weren't speaking in English. And when the Marker was asked By the Rules official if he was asked to move the stick or why he moved the stick, suddenly his English language skill disappeared. The whole thing just seemed dodgy.

One more thing to consider. The stick was stopping his ball from rolling down the hill. It was impossible for the Player to replace the ball without it moving (without the stick holding it in place.) So he must have placed it a different spot and played from there. And that should have incurred another penalty in my opinion.

Unfortunately it wasn't the only dodgy thing I saw him do on the weekend. On Saturday, he hit one out of bounds. He dropped another ball from about ankle height and then used his clubhead to "tee" the ball up into a preferred lie. We were playing "play the lie". And then again on Sunday, his tee shot ended up against a tree. After everyone else played their shots, when it was his turn, his ball was suddenly 3 ft away from the tree and he had a free swing. No one saw him move his ball but my son said to me, "Dad, I'm sure his ball was against the tree."

Not much we can do about it now but instead of him finishing 2nd, adding the penalty shots, he should have finished 6th. If I was marking his card, I would have refused to sign it.

 

[Steven Rules]

..... However there was no way for us to know if any request took place because they weren't speaking in English....

It is irrelevant whether there was an actual request. From your original post it seems clear the player knew what was going on. A reminder about Interpretation 1.3c(1)/1:

A player is responsible when another person's action breaches a Rule with respect to the player .... if the player sees the action and allows it.

I'd have no hesitation bringing the actions of this player to the attention of the Committee at least so that the Committee can be on the lookout for patterns of behaviour from him

 

[salfordlad]

Smoking gun there, and absolutely no integrity, but if the referee cannot get at the facts then hands are tied. However, it's a bit unfortunate that the referee didn't know the process for replacing the ball. There was no requirement to replace the stick. And if the ball would not come to rest on the correct spot, the player was required to find the nearest spot where it would per rule 14.2e (so no separate penalty as golfa suggests).
But, clearly, the player continued to cheat elsewhere - and golfa, unintentionally I'm sure, empowered that process by not immediately challenging other breaches. I know it is not easy to do that on the course - getting over the shock and surprise can be an issue at first - but if you can't bring yourself to confront the cheating player, there's little point in complaining about where they finished in the competition. I also note - and I think this is a really big misunderstanding - it is not possible to hide behind the "I'm not the marker" line. The responsibility to draw rules breaches to attention is the responsibility of every player in the stroke play field - it is not a role owned by the marker - rule 20.1c(2) - repeated below.
Thank you golfa for bringing this story forward, and I apologise for implied criticism of your actions, but there are some very big issues here and we all really need to step up to the challenge of calling out cheating behaviours, such as are presented here. Or we cannot complain when the cheats walk away with the silverware.


20.1c(2) Players Should Protect Other Players in the Competition. To protect the interests
of all other players:
•• If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have
breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring
this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or
the Committee.
•• This should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue,
and no later than before the other player returns his or her scorecard unless it
is not possible to do so.
If the player fails to do so, the Committee may disqualify the player under
Rule 1.2a if it decides that this was serious misconduct contrary to the spirit
of the game.

 

[jim8flog]

I would agree with Stevens Rules

The interpretation given should have been applied

1.3c(1)/1 – Action of Another Person Breaches a Rule For Player


A player is responsible when another person’s action breaches a Rule with respect player if it is done at the player’s request or if the player sees the action and allows it.

 

[golfa]

Smoking gun there, and absolutely no integrity, but if the referee cannot get at the facts then hands are tied. However, it's a bit unfortunate that the referee didn't know the process for replacing the ball. There was no requirement to replace the stick. And if the ball would not come to rest on the correct spot, the player was required to find the nearest spot where it would per rule 14.2e (so no separate penalty as golfa suggests).
But, clearly, the player continued to cheat elsewhere - and golfa, unintentionally I'm sure, empowered that process by not immediately challenging other breaches. I know it is not easy to do that on the course - getting over the shock and surprise can be an issue at first - but if you can't bring yourself to confront the cheating player, there's little point in complaining about where they finished in the competition. I also note - and I think this is a really big misunderstanding - it is not possible to hide behind the "I'm not the marker" line. The responsibility to draw rules breaches to attention is the responsibility of every player in the stroke play field - it is not a role owned by the marker - rule 20.1c(2) - repeated below.
Thank you golfa for bringing this story forward, and I apologise for implied criticism of your actions, but there are some very big issues here and we all really need to step up to the challenge of calling out cheating behaviours, such as are presented here. Or we cannot complain when the cheats walk away with the silverware.


20.1c(2) Players Should Protect Other Players in the Competition. To protect the interests
of all other players:
•• If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have
breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring
this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or
the Committee.
•• This should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue,
and no later than before the other player returns his or her scorecard unless it
is not possible to do so.
If the player fails to do so, the Committee may disqualify the player under
Rule 1.2a if it decides that this was serious misconduct contrary to the spirit
of the game.

You are right, I was surprised when he used his clubhead to "tee" his ball up after taking a drop to play another ball after hitting his first ball out of bounds. I actually couldn't believe what I was seeing. I looked at the other players in the group to see if they'd seen what I had seen but they were already walking down the fairway. Our club is almost always "clean and place" except for when it comes to big competitions. I figured that perhaps he'd just forgotten so said nothing. That was on the Saturday. But after the debacle on Sunday, I thought there was something more serious going on.

Tonight I had dinner with my son and showed him this thread and he said, "I played with him the previous weekend and he teed his ball up in front of the tee markers and I called his attention to it and he reteed."

As Steven Rules suggested, the Committee have been alerted to the situation and they told me that they will convene a meeting with the guy who deals with their Nation's members. Apparently he's a stickler for the rules so hopefully he'll tear a strip off the 2 guys involved.

 

[salfordlad]

You are right, I was surprised when he used his clubhead to "tee" his ball up after taking a drop to play another ball after hitting his first ball out of bounds. I actually couldn't believe what I was seeing. I looked at the other players in the group to see if they'd seen what I had seen but they were already walking down the fairway. Our club is almost always "clean and place" except for when it comes to big competitions. I figured that perhaps he'd just forgotten so said nothing. That was on the Saturday. But after the debacle on Sunday, I thought there was something more serious going on.

Tonight I had dinner with my son and showed him this thread and he said, "I played with him the previous weekend and he teed his ball up in front of the tee markers and I called his attention to it and he reteed."

As Steven Rules suggested, the Committee have been alerted to the situation and they told me that they will convene a meeting with the guy who deals with their Nation's members. Apparently he's a stickler for the rules so hopefully he'll tear a strip off the 2 guys involved.

That sounds good. Hopefully, at the least, the Committee person will make clear to these people that their behaviours are going to be under continuing scrutiny for adherence to the rules and if they have any doubts about what the rules require they should bring their questions forward. But behaviours like moving the ball in play with a club head without authority are absolutely outside the rules as is players colluding to have an outside agency move a loose impediment interfering with a player's ball.

 

[Steven Rules]

You are right, I was surprised when he used his clubhead to "tee" his ball up after taking a drop to play another ball after hitting his first ball out of bounds. I actually couldn't believe what I was seeing. I looked at the other players in the group to see if they'd seen what I had seen but they were already walking down the fairway. Our club is almost always "clean and place" .....

Getting slightly off topic now but you are not allowed to place/replace the ball with a club head:

Interpretation Replace/1 - Ball May Not Be Replaced with a Club

For a ball to be replaced in a right way, it must be set down and let go. This means the player must use his or her hand to put the ball back in play on the spot it was lifted or moved from.

For example, if a player lifts his or her ball from the putting green and sets it aside, the player must not replace the ball by rolling it to the required spot with a club. If he or she does so, the ball is not replaced in the right way and the player gets one penalty stroke under Rule 14.2b(2) (How Ball Must Be Replaced) if the mistake is not corrected before the stroke is made.