Ball hitting Ball Question

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'll make this question as general as possible - which will make it sound a little odd but there is no trickery in the wording of the question - I just don't know the answer.

Are there ANY circumstances in which there is NO penalty incurred by a player when that player, not playing out of turn, correctly strikes the correct ball and the struck ball hits another ball on the same green - the second ball being a ball that has been played from teeing-off on the hole.

 

[Colin L]

I take it that when you say "on the same green" the stroke is made from on the green.

No penalty in match play if you hit another ball in play on the green.

In stroke play, if your fellow competitor has marked and lifted his ball and then put the ball down somewhere on the green while waiting his turn, that ball is not in play and there is no penalty for hitting it with a stroke from the green. You play your ball as it lies. In the same circumstances in match play, there is no penalty but the player has the option of playing the ball as it lies or cancelling the stroke and replaying it.

 

[williamalex1]

Were the 2 balls involved in the same game , ie the same 2,3 or 4 ball

 

[Colin L]

I took it that "the second ball being a ball that has been played from teeing-off on the hole" meant it belonged to the same game. That's what my answer was based on anyway.

[And as an afterthought, if the ball did not belong to the same game, i can't think of any circumstances in which there could be a penalty for hitting it.]

 

[williamalex1]

I took it that "the second ball being a ball that has been played from teeing-off on the hole" meant it belonged to the same game. That's what my answer was based on anyway.

[And as an afterthought, if the ball did not belong to the same game, i can't think of any circumstances in which there could be a penalty for hitting it.]

My thought was that the ball was from the game behind that was wave on to tee off to save time, which is done on long par 3 holes on certain courses . therefore not in the first game but on the correct green. still no penalty

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Clarifications. Yes - both balls would be in the same 'game', both balls are on the same green, and both balls are 'in play'.

So from the above it seems like there aren't ANY circumstances I'd be penalised! Just to check - let's turn question completely on it's head.

Are there ANY circumstances when you WOULD get penalised (one or more penalty shots in medal, or loss of hole in match play) if your putt hit another 'in play' ball on the green? Note that the ball could be that of a playing companion; an opponent in a match; or your partner in a 4BBB match or competition.

btw - this is not a trick question. If the answer is very straightforward and well understood and laid out in the rules then that is fine. It's just that I don't know

 

[Foxholer]

Rule 19.5 a. means that your second sentence is wrong.

Your ball on green hit another ball on green in play costs you 2 shots.
In 4BBB, there may be an issue if opponents have asked for the ball that you subsequently hit with yours to be marked and lifted but you take your stroke before that is done.

 

[Colin L]

So from the above it seems like there aren't ANY circumstances I'd be penalised! .

Whoah! That's not what what I said. You asked if there were any circumstance where you would not be penalised for hitting another ball on the green with a stroke from the green. I gave you two such instances:
a) in match play there is never a penalty if your ball hits another ball at rest;
b) where you hit a ball that had been marked, lifted and put aside somewhere on the green there is no penalty (but you are now saying that the ball that has been hit is in play so that takes that one out of the story).

That leaves the normal stroke play penalty (2PS) for hitting a ball in play on the green from a stroke on the green (Rule 19-5a as Foxholer pointed out). And that is the answer to your "upside down" question.

I think you are maybe complicating a simple matter by approaching it with these questions. It's maybe easier to remember it this way:

In match play there is never a penalty if your ball hits another ball in play. In stroke play there is no penalty for hitting another ball in play except when both balls were on the putting green when the stroke was made.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Whoah! That's not what what I said. You asked if there were any circumstance where you would not be penalised for hitting another ball on the green with a stroke from the green. I gave you two such instances:
a) in match play there is never a penalty if your ball hits another ball at rest;
b) where you hit a ball that had been marked, lifted and put aside somewhere on the green there is no penalty (but you are now saying that the ball that has been hit is in play so that takes that one out of the story).

That leaves the normal stroke play penalty (2PS) for hitting a ball in play on the green from a stroke on the green (Rule 19-5a as Foxholer pointed out). And that is the answer to your "upside down" question.

I think you are maybe complicating a simple matter by approaching it with these questions. It's maybe easier to remember it this way:

In match play there is never a penalty if your ball hits another ball in play. In stroke play there is no penalty for hitting another ball in play except when both balls were on the putting green when the stroke was made.

@ColinL - I absolutely appreciate that this may be a simple matter and I am only complicating things- however I'm only trying to get to the answer I need and you have just about provided it. Your explanation is precisely as I understood it. However if I may be very pedantic (it sometimes helps with the rules of golf).

You say that 'In match play there is never a penalty if your ball hits another ball in play'

This implies that in 4BBB I could ask my 4BBB partner to leave his ball as a backstop? Yes my partner would replace his ball where it was originally at rest - but what rule prevents me from using his ball as a backstop? I've always assumed that you can't do that - but I've recently discovered that my rules knowledge is out of date (e.g. penalty for being struck by your own ball - in match play was 2 shots now 1). Or could my opponents ask for my partners ball to be marked and removed and we couldn't refuse?

 

[Colin L]

Yes, in 4BBB matchplay you could use your partner's ball as a backstop.
But yes, your opponents could require your partner's ball to be lifted (that's Rule 22-1)

 

[duncan mackie]

In match play there is never a penalty if your ball hits another ball in play. .

er.......NO

I can think of a number of matchplay situations where a penalty would apply........but can see little point in the context of this thread in listing them all as it risks further confusion!

Can I suggest that Swings It posts his question in the normal way to avoid such confusion; please

EDIT - I see we have now cross posted. If you hit either an opponents ball that they had indicated they wished to mark, or your partners ball that the opponents had asked you partner to mark, you would be penalised. In the latter case you partner would be penalised even if you didn't hit his ball.

 

[Colin L]

I plead guilty of rushing a shorthand answer. Never say never! And don't make generalised assertions.

It is all too easy, I find, to forget about other rules and situations when focussing on a question. Still, the reassuring thing is that if dealing with something like hitting a ball when the player had indicated he was going to lift it, it would be quite straightforward. Maybe that's the nature of a forum conversation. Maybe it's just me!

 

[Colin L]

[And as an afterthought, if the ball did not belong to the same game, i can't think of any circumstances in which there could be a penalty for hitting it.]

I think I will give up for the day - my brain has engaged reverse gear. In stroke play, you would be penalised for hitting a ball in play which belonged to a player in another game if both balls were on the green. That could happen for example if a player from another group that is playing through hit one of the balls of your game left on the green with a stroke from the green.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

OK - context.

I was sitting in clubhouse yesterday chewing the cud - as you do. One of the group (a good lady golfer - and ladies and this one in particular - tend to be pretty hot on rules - she also runs the Ladies Academy) mentioned that as far as she was aware there was a situation where no penalty would result from one ball hitting another on the green (as I have tried to describe).

I couldn't quite get to what she meant - and she couldn't really remember the details of the scenario herself. I think the balls involved were those of a 4BBB pairing and she made it sound as if one ball could be used as a back stop. Very vague I know - and that's why I tried to be very general about it as I couldn't think of a scenario where that would be the case.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think the answer is Colin's. Let's see if I've got it.

In a 4BBB match one team may ask a ball of the other team to be marked and lifted AT ANY TIME. So if my buddy putts up to behind the hole and it is then me to play - I can leave the ball where it is as a backstop UNLESS our opponents ask for it to be marked and lifted - even although it is not their turn to play. We cannot refuse that request.

 

[duncan mackie]

I think the answer is Colin's. Let's see if I've got it.

In a 4BBB match one team may ask a ball of the other team to be marked and lifted AT ANY TIME. So if my buddy putts up to behind the hole and it is then me to play - I can leave the ball where it is as a backstop UNLESS our opponents ask for it to be marked and lifted - even although it is not their turn to play. We cannot refuse that request.

that is correct

equally if you don't request an opponent to mark his ball,and he chooses not to, and you putt and strike his ball there is no penalty

in both cases there will be people claiming all sorts of things in the majority of games out there - across a wide range of capabiities as well. as much as anything it's because people play most of their competitive golf in stroke play environment (accepting that thaere are those who play a lot of club matches too!)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

that is correct

equally if you don't request an opponent to mark his ball,and he chooses not to, and you putt and strike his ball there is no penalty

in both cases there will be people claiming all sorts of things in the majority of games out there - across a wide range of capabiities as well. as much as anything it's because people play most of their competitive golf in stroke play environment (accepting that thaere are those who play a lot of club matches too!)

Excellent - thanks Duncan.

Mind you I'm now trying to think of a situation in match play where I WOULD get penalised if my ball hit an opponents ball (but maybe I just need to sit down and have a proper think)

 

[Region3]

Mind you I'm now trying to think of a situation in match play where I WOULD get penalised if my ball hit an opponents ball

From what I've understood of the thread so far, you'd be penalised if you putted before an opponents ball had been marked and they had expressed their wish to do so before you played. Having said that though, it sounds like you'd be penalised whether or not your ball struck theirs.

 

[Colin L]

From what I've understood of the thread so far, you'd be penalised if you putted before an opponents ball had been marked and they had expressed their wish to do so before you played. [/QUOTE
Having said that though, it sounds like you'd be penalised whether or not your ball struck theirs.

Yes and not quite. I think this covers the possibilities, but bear in mind, my form today has been a bit questionable.

a) Putting before your opponent has lifted his ball when he has indicated he intends to do so - no penalty
b) Hitting your opponent's ball before he has lifted his ball when he has indicated he intends to do so - loss of hole or in 4BBB match disqualified from the hole.
c) In 4BBB, putting when your partner has been asked to lift his ball but you don't hit his ball - no penalty to you but your partner is disqualified from the hole for not complying with Rule 22-1
d) In 4BBB, putting when your partner has been asked to lift his ball and you hit his ball, your partner is disqualified from the hole as above, plus you are disqualified from the hole because you gained assistance from his ball which shouldn't have been there.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes and not quite. I think this covers the possibilities, but bear in mind, my form today has been a bit questionable.

a) Putting before your opponent has lifted his ball when he has indicated he intends to do so - no penalty
b) Hitting your opponent's ball before he has lifted his ball when he has indicated he intends to do so - loss of hole or in 4BBB match disqualified from the hole.
c) In 4BBB, putting when your partner has been asked to lift his ball but you don't hit his ball - no penalty to you but your partner is disqualified from the hole for not complying with Rule 22-1
d) In 4BBB, putting when your partner has been asked to lift his ball and you hit his ball, your partner is disqualified from the hole as above, plus you are disqualified from the hole because you gained assistance from his ball which shouldn't have been there.

Many thanks Colin - most of the above is a bit 'esoteric' - but it's the unusual stuff that baffles us when it happens - as it will. So I'm glad I asked (though you might not be )

But I think I've got (more than) what I asked for.

btw - I'm guessing you get penalised for b) because otherwise you could seek to gain an advantage by deliberately getting a deflection off your opponents ball - your opponent can replace his ball at the spot it was, yours stays where it ends up. Sounds a bit weird but if the rules don't accomodate and penalise it, then some cunning b****r would do it.