Ball falls into uncovered winter hole.

[white_feather]

With winter upon us I have noticed that the greenkeepers have cut holes in the winter greens quite close to the summer ones.

What is the ruling if your ball lands in one of these uncovered holes, is the ball dead how can you complete the hole?

 

[CMAC]

as its not the green in play you will probably have a local rule naming all temp greens as GUR, so lift and drop not nearer the hole no penalty

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

as its not the green in play you will probably have a local rule naming all temp greens as GUR, so lift and drop not nearer the hole no penalty

I've had two holes-in-one on temp greens - pity we weren't on them.

 

[woody69]

I would guess the hole would be considered as Abnormal Ground Conditions so as you would be able to lift and drop within 1 club length of nearest point of relief without penalty

 

[rulefan]

With winter upon us I have noticed that the greenkeepers have cut holes in the winter greens quite close to the summer ones.

What is the ruling if your ball lands in one of these uncovered holes, is the ball dead how can you complete the hole?

The holes are 'holes made by a greenkeeper' and/or immovable obstructions, so relief under either of these rules (25-1 or 24-2) is available.
Further, as the winter greens have seemingly been prepared for use, they are Wrong Greens and free relief is compulsory under rule 25-3. As a reminder, when the winter green is actually in play, the normal green is a Wrong Green.

So you can either take relief directly from the winter green or in two steps, take relief from the hole and then from the winter green.

 

[Scrindle]

What generally counts as an 'immovable obstruction' out of interest? Can anyone give me some exampels please?

 

[doublebogey7]

What generally counts as an 'immovable obstruction' out of interest? Can anyone give me some exampels please?

From the "Definitions"

An "obstruction" is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths and manufactured ice, except:
a. Objects defining out of bounds, such as walls, fences, stakes and railings;
b. Any part of an immovable artificial object that is out of bounds; and
c. Any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course.
An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage. Otherwise it is an immovable obstruction.
Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule declaring a movable obstruction to be an immovable obstruction.

 

[Scrindle]

From the "Definitions"

An "obstruction" is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths and manufactured ice, except:
a. Objects defining out of bounds, such as walls, fences, stakes and railings;
b. Any part of an immovable artificial object that is out of bounds; and
c. Any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course.
An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage. Otherwise it is an immovable obstruction.
Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule declaring a movable obstruction to be an immovable obstruction.

So if my ball landed near to a 150 yard marker, say 1' in front of it with the marker being directly between the ball and the flag so that it interferes with my swing, I could take it out of the ground to play my shot then replace it as a movable obstruction. But, if the ball landed near a white out of bounds stake (while still being within the course) that would interfer with my swing, I should pick up my ball and drop within a club length of the stake inbounds but no nearer the hole?

Presumably immovable artificial objects include things such as fences, or say a half way rest stop building, where they would interfere with your swing?

Do immovable objects provide free relief where they interfere with your swing only? (i.e. you couldn't claim free relief because you duffed your shot and the aforementioned white stake hypothetically prevented your ball taking the perfect line to the green but didn't actually interfere with your swing - that's just tough luck and you should play better golf?).

Sorry for all the questions!!

[edit] Doh! Just realised I could probably have taken relief from a small white fence on the fringe of the green (put there to prevent people walking accross that particular area I believe but not marked as GUR) that my ball rolled up to on Sunday that interferred with my swing, as an immovable object!!

 

[Region3]

I can't help with all the other stuff, but as well as not being allowed to move an OOB marker, you don't get free relief from it either.

 

[srixon 1]

I can't help with all the other stuff, but as well as not being allowed to move an OOB marker, you don't get free relief from it either.

Another one of golfs daft rules. You're not out of bounds so why should you be penalised. I can see why you are not allowed to move the OOB post as some folks wouldn't replace it, but why not the free drop?

 

[doublebogey7]

1) So if my ball landed near to a 150 yard marker, say 1' in front of it with the marker being directly between the ball and the flag so that it interferes with my swing, I could take it out of the ground to play my shot then replace it as a movable obstruction. 2) But, if the ball landed near a white out of bounds stake (while still being within the course) that would interfer with my swing, I should pick up my ball and drop within a club length of the stake inbounds but no nearer the hole?

3) Presumably immovable artificial objects include things such as fences, or say a half way rest stop building, where they would interfere with your swing?

4) Do immovable objects provide free relief where they interfere with your swing only? (i.e. you couldn't claim free relief because you duffed your shot and the aforementioned white stake hypothetically prevented your ball taking the perfect line to the green but didn't actually interfere with your swing - that's just tough luck and you should play better golf?).

Sorry for all the questions!!

[edit] Doh! 5) Just realised I could probably have taken relief from a small white fence on the fringe of the green (put there to prevent people walking accross that particular area I believe but not marked as GUR) that my ball rolled up to on Sunday that interferred with my swing, as an immovable object!!

Answers as I understand it:
1) Yes, an immovable obstruction can be moved at any time providing you are not unduly delaying play.
2) No, out of bounds markers/fences are not obstructions and therefore relieve is not available.
3) Yes - Providing they are not movable.
4) Swing or stance only i.e. not line of site
5) Yes provided it was not movable.

 

[Colin L]

Another one of golfs daft rules. You're not out of bounds so why should you be penalised. I can see why you are not allowed to move the OOB post as some folks wouldn't replace it, but why not the free drop?

Because the OOB stake is out of bounds itself and is not an obstruction. You do not get relief from interference by an artificial object that lies OOB. [See the Definition of Obstruction]

 

[rosecott]

Answers as I understand it:
1) Yes, an immovable obstruction can be moved at any time providing you are not unduly delaying play.
2) No, out of bounds markers/fences are not obstructions and therefore relieve is not available.
3) Yes - Providing they are not movable.
4) Swing or stance only i.e. not line of site
5) Yes provided it was not movable.

A moveable obstruction can be declared immoveable by Local Rule. Our 150 yard markers, although moveable, have been declared immoveable. The trouble was that players would remove them and either forget to replace them or move them forwards or backwards from where they should be..

 

[Old Skier]

A moveable obstruction can be declared immoveable by Local Rule. Our 150 yard markers, although moveable, have been declared immoveable. The trouble was that players would remove them and either forget to replace them or move them forwards or backwards from where they should be..

Very sensible, makes note to talk to committee.

 

[backwoodsman]

Back to the OP.

The holes are holes made by a greenkeeper and therefore, by definition, they are ground under repair and you get relief. No need of any local rule.

 

[rulefan]

Back to the OP.

The holes are holes made by a greenkeeper and therefore, by definition, they are ground under repair and you get relief. No need of any local rule.

I thought I included that in post #5

 

[backwoodsman]

I thought I included that in post #5

I fear you only said they were holes made by a greenkeeper. I just emphasised that that automatically defined them as GUR. And as a thought, if they are GUR, I'd presume they can't be classified as immovable obstruction can they?

Further query - if a winter green is not in use, can/must it be a wrong green? For example, our temporary winter holes are all prepared on the front apron of the main green - and if the main green is in play, so is the apron.

 

[rulefan]

I fear you only said they were holes made by a greenkeeper. I just emphasised that that automatically defined them as GUR. And as a thought, if they are GUR, I'd presume they can't be classified as immovable obstruction can they?

I see your point.
They are be both. In addition, if they have a liner that will be an IO or a cap that will be an IO or MO.

Further query - if a winter green is not in use, can/must it be a wrong green? For example, our temporary winter holes are all prepared on the front apron of the main green - and if the main green is in play, so is the apron.

If an area is prepared for putting, it is by definition a putting green. If it is not the 'live' putting green of the hole in play, it is a wrong green.

If you wish to allow play on the temp when it is not live you should declare the whole area to be the putting green and make sure the enclosing margin is clear.

However, the situation you describe can be overcome if they are not intended to be used at all (during the summer say) by simply not having a hole and by virtue of the grass length

When they are in play, do you permit playing from the main green? If you do you should declare the whole area to be the putting green and make sure the enclosing margin is clear. If not, in addition declare the main green to be GUR with compulsory free relief.

 

[rulefan]

I have just realised there may be problems I had overlooked. I'll get back when I have thought them through.

 

[Colin L]

While rule fan is thinking, here is a couple of my thoughts:

I would imagine you wouldn't want to allow play from the main green when the temporary green is used since the purpose of a temporary green is to protect the main one. Clearly there would be less play on the on the main green but it could still get some usage. But if just minimising play on the main green is what's wanted, as rule fan says you could just make it all one large green. It would just be like a double green: the wrong hole is an abnormal ground condition from which you get relief - including relief if the hole is on your line of putt.

If you are not allowing play from the main green and the temporary green is on its apron, you will have to be sure there is not a Local Rule including compulsory relief from the apron of a wrong putting green.