Ball embedded on the green.

duncan mackie said:
you seem to be managing to mix and match the rules better than most here - led on my SocketRocket's flawed contribution!

in simple terms, and more for those who may be getting confused

1. as already quoted, if a ball fails to remain on it's spot when replaced you are required to establish the nearest point, no nearer the hole, where it will - and place it there.
2. once a ball has been placed, and is stationary at rest, if it subsequently moves as a result of the wind you would play it from where it comes to rest - in exactly the same way as if a ball you played and thought had come to rest started to move again 'on it's own'.
3. if a ball at rest is caused to move by most other things you are required to replace it - best to read Rule 18 when you have a moment as it's a little long to quote here!

As to the original post, and Gary's question, repairing the pitchmark such that a replaced ball will stay at rest in such a situation would be a breach of 13-2 because you aren't simply repairing damage and would loose the protection of that exception.
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Many moons ago a group of us played Formby (as it happens the day after a nice but disastrous attempt to knock it round Royal Birkdale). On the green of a hole up in the trees (can't remember which hole) my buddies ball came to rest just on the top level of a huge step in the split level green and only 6ft from the hole. I was up on a heather bank on the right of the green and played on - and as I scrambled down I jumped the remaining few feet onto the green.

Immediately following my landing my buddies ball started to move and rolled away down the slope - ending up 'miles' from the hole. He always claims it was the vibration of me landing on the green that caused his ball to move and so he should have been able to replace it. I said - nonsense, I landed too far from the ball for it to make that sort of difference - and made him play it from where it had ended up.

Btw - the time from his ball coming to rest on the top level and me landing in the green was certainly a good bit less than 30seconds. He played on - I chipped on - picked my bag up and scrambled down and jumped off the bank - so maybe 15seconds.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Many moons ago a group of us played Formby (as it happens the day after a nice but disastrous attempt to knock it round Royal Birkdale). On the green of a hole up in the trees (can't remember which hole) my buddies ball came to rest just on the top level of a huge step in the split level green and only 6ft from the hole. I was up on a heather bank on the right of the green and played on - and as I scrambled down I jumped the remaining few feet onto the green.

Immediately following my landing my buddies ball started to move and rolled away down the slope - ending up 'miles' from the hole. He always claims it was the vibration of me landing on the green that caused his ball to move and so he should have been able to replace it. I said - nonsense, I landed too far from the ball for it to make that sort of difference - and made him play it from where it had ended up.

Btw - the time from his ball coming to rest on the top level and me landing in the green was certainly a good bit less than 30seconds. He played on - I chipped on - picked my bag up and scrambled down and jumped off the bank - so maybe 15seconds.
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the only relevant time in this situation would be the relationship between your 'landing' and his ball starting to move.

as you describe it I would suggest that you did cause the ball to move and it should have been replaced.

it doesn't take as much force to create demonstrable vibrations over that sort of distance in dry conditions (in wet it seems to take more) as you might think.
 
duncan mackie said:
you seem to be managing to mix and match the rules better than most here - led on my SocketRocket's flawed contribution!
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Do you have to be so rude? I gave my opinion on the Op's request, it was based on my understanding of what should happen in such circumstances and was intended to help. By all means disagree with me but have the good manners to do it politely.
 
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SocketRocket said:
Do you have to be so rude? I gave my opinion on the Op's request, it was based on my understanding of what should happen in such circumstances and was intended to help. By all means disagree with me but have the good manners to do it politely.
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Nothing rude about that!

If you were embarrassed, it was your own fault for being wrong. 'Man' up and accept that fact! There should be no shame in doing so! In fact there's a distinct argument for the ability to admit errors being a positive trait!
 
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Foxholer said:
Nothing rude about that!

If you were embarrassed, it was your own fault for being wrong. 'Man' up and accept that fact! There should be no shame in doing so! In fact there's a distinct argument for the ability to admit errors being a positive trait!
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Who said anything about embarrassment? I may well have been wrong and if I was it was with good intentions, where did I suggest otherwise? My comment (not directed to you) was regarding the rude manner the poster used to disagree with me, it seems that you are also of a similar manner.
 
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Going way back in this thread to the question of where "rub of the green" appears in the Rules, it appears in the Definitions:

Rub Of The Green
A “rub of the green’’ occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1).

As far as I can recall, that is the only reference to the expression in the Rules* and as you see it is narrowly defined. It is, of course, commonly used by golfers just to mean anything untoward that happens to your ball that you have to put up with.

*A hostage to fortune, that one! Who is going to come along and tell me my recall is faulty and there is another reference?
 
Colin L said:
Going way back in this thread to the question of where "rub of the green" appears in the Rules, it appears in the Definitions:

Rub Of The Green
A “rub of the green’’ occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1).

As far as I can recall, that is the only reference to the expression in the Rules* and as you see it is narrowly defined. It is, of course, commonly used by golfers just to mean anything untoward that happens to your ball that you have to put up with.

*A hostage to fortune, that one! Who is going to come along and tell me my recall is faulty and there is another reference?
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What you say is correct. The term is used amongst Golfers to say 'that's the way it is' or 'you just have to accept it as it happens' It's used in this context often and I would suggest most golfers know it.
 
I have a "Ball embedded on the green" query so rather than start another thread I thought I'd ask on here.

I pitched my ball to the green and it plugged in the green in its own pitch mark.
I marked my ball behind the pitch mark/ball, lifted the ball from the pitch mark and proceeded to repair the pitch mark.
In the act of repairing the pitch mark I caused the marker to move and it rolled away.
I replaced the marker and completed repairing the pitch mark.

As the marker was not moved in the specific act of lifting or replacing the ball, my guess is that this is a one shot penalty, however, it seems a bit harsh as I was trying to do the right thing in repairing the pitchmark.

Any ideas?

(Incidentally, this was on the 18th green of a 4BBB Winter League game and meant the difference between halving the match or losing it. Our opponents were gentleman in any case though and declined to add the penalty.)
 
Crow said:
I have a "Ball embedded on the green" query so rather than start another thread I thought I'd ask on here.

I pitched my ball to the green and it plugged in the green in its own pitch mark.
I marked my ball behind the pitch mark/ball, lifted the ball from the pitch mark and proceeded to repair the pitch mark.
In the act of repairing the pitch mark I caused the marker to move and it rolled away.
I replaced the marker and completed repairing the pitch mark.

As the marker was not moved in the specific act of lifting or replacing the ball, my guess is that this is a one shot penalty, however, it seems a bit harsh as I was trying to do the right thing in repairing the pitchmark.

Any ideas?

(Incidentally, this was on the 18th green of a 4BBB Winter League game and meant the difference between halving the match or losing it. Our opponents were gentleman in any case though and declined to add the penalty.)
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No penalty, this is specifically provided for

Rule 16-1

c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage
The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.
Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
 
MashieNiblick said:
No penalty, this is specifically provided for

Rule 16-1

c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage
The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.
Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
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Thanks Mashie, I'll be able to sleep easy now! :)

(I was obviousy looking in the wrong section for ball marking.)
 
Learnt something new today :)

On the odd occasion I've finished in my pitch mark I've marked a putter head's length away (as if I were moving a marker that was in the way) before repairing the ground.
 
Our greens get very soggy and we get a lot of embedded balls so I looked this up a while back.

In a similar vein it is also worth noting that when you are on the green there is similarly no penalty if your ball or marker are accidentally moved in the process of removing a loose impediment, they just have to be replaced - Rule 23-1.
 
Rules of Golf - Definition

A rub of the green occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any Outside Agency (see Rule 19-1).
 
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