Arn't joining fees making it harder for new members?

[Lord Tyrion]

They are part of history and folklore up here. The odd club may have them still but they are a rarity and I can't think of who it would be.

Any additional financial burden is bound to put off new members but joining fees would soon be dropped if the demand was not there. The fact that they still exist in some areas suggest the numbers in those regions are still strong. I'm just glad I don't live in one of those regions as it would undoubtedly affect my ability to join a club.

 

[hovis]

A club by me not only demans a £1500 joining fee but you have to pay a £200 bar levy. What world do people live in where they find it acceptable to tell people "to be a member of this club you must spend £200 in our bar"

More to the point. People pay it??????????

 

[patricks148]

A club by me not only demans a £1500 joining fee but you have to pay a £200 bar levy. What world do people live in where they find it acceptable to tell people "to be a member of this club you must spend £200 in our bar"

More to the point. People pay it??????????

like all things its supply and demand, if there is a demand people will pay it.

£200 in the bar is nothing tbh, if you are using the club properly.

Royal Dornoch has a waiting list, Joining fee and you have to be a member of the Struie Course (2nd course) for 2 years, plenty will do that because of the Quality of the course.

 

[GB72]

The bar levy is a whole other argument.

Again, I think that the club should make the clubhouse something that people want to use rather than have to. I have to drive to the course and so a beer is out of the question and the service can be slow so I do not want to sit around for a sandwich. Add to that the lack of atmosphere and it is not a place that I want to use much. I often go to the pub down the road from where me and my playing partners live for a pint, far more relaxed.

Add into that the other aspects that put people off golf, time taken being a big one, and the bar levy seems like an issue to those who have to get home after a round for various reasons.

The days of people being able to spend all day at the club are long gone for many and so having to pay for food and drink that they do not really want is just another extra cost.

 

[hovis]

The bar levy is a whole other argument.

Again, I think that the club should make the clubhouse something that people want to use rather than have to. I have to drive to the course and so a beer is out of the question and the service can be slow so I do not want to sit around for a sandwich. Add to that the lack of atmosphere and it is not a place that I want to use much. I often go to the pub down the road from where me and my playing partners live for a pint, far more relaxed.

Add into that the other aspects that put people off golf, time taken being a big one, and the bar levy seems like an issue to those who have to get home after a round for various reasons.

The days of people being able to spend all day at the club are long gone for many and so having to pay for food and drink that they do not really want is just another extra cost.

Couldn't say it any better

 

[Deleted member 18588]

The bar levy is a whole other argument.

Again, I think that the club should make the clubhouse something that people want to use rather than have to. I have to drive to the course and so a beer is out of the question and the service can be slow so I do not want to sit around for a sandwich. Add to that the lack of atmosphere and it is not a place that I want to use much. I often go to the pub down the road from where me and my playing partners live for a pint, far more relaxed.

Add into that the other aspects that put people off golf, time taken being a big one, and the bar levy seems like an issue to those who have to get home after a round for various reasons.

The days of people being able to spend all day at the club are long gone for many and so having to pay for food and drink that they do not really want is just another extra cost.

Don't want to sound rude but why do you belong to a club where you seem permanently dissatisfied?

You continually suggest what the club should be doing but you don't seem to wish to become involved. Remember in a members' club all the decisions are being made by volunteers. Have you thought of volunteering yourself?

 

[GB72]

I have 2 playing partners on the committee who are continually trying to put forward change but are voted down by the long standing, older members who are voted in every time. Fair enough, if that is what a majority want then that is fair. It is driving them up the wall. They are trying to evolve the club into something that will suit more people and something that will attract different ages and the next generation of golfers whilst the older and more established members want the same club that they have always known. The responsibility to the committee should be to safeguard and develop the club for future generations not to make every decision on what suits this one. One of my playing partners has just produced a report showing how we lose, year on year, 25% of our members aged 25-40 and has researched why they have left but the club will not change to try and accommodate that age group.
Why do I stay, because unless I want to be a member of a hotel course where getting any sort of reasonable tee time during the summer is next to impossible then there are 2 other courses that are viable options, I have been a member of both and both have the same issues so I stay at the one nearest home. Often thought of jacking in my membership, joining the local 9 hole course to keep a handicap and go nomad but last year my playing partners persuaded me to stay. I will also be staying for the next 2 years as my playing partner will be vice captain next year and captain the year after and so I want to stay to support him through those 2 years.
Why do I not get directly involved myself, because the committee meetings are at times that do not suit someone who does not get home from work until 7.00 at night most days. If that were not the case and I could actually get to meetings then I would more than happily be involved.
What I do no like is the attempt to force people to act in a certain way. By the posts on here, the joining fee is to ensure people do not change clubs, the bar levy is to ensure that people spend enough at the club. I believe that clubs should be making their offer so irresistible that people want to stay, make the bar so accommodating that people want to use it, simple.
Believe it or not, if you knew me you would appreciate that I am by no means a whinger or a militant but I do have opinions and the general attitude of golf clubs near me is one that gets me riled.

At the moment, my desire to play golf is overriding the desire to leave.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I know how frustrating it can be to get some older committee members to change their views and, sometimes, patience is the answer as those old guys are not going to be the decision makers forever.

If, however, things do not in the future change it can only be that the majority of members don't want them to change or are too apathetic to address those issues.

I understand that you are not a whinger but, having served on committees myself, I get a little irritated by those who criticise but are either unwilling to themselves come forward or, at least, offer constructive alternatives to the status quo.

 

[chellie]

Why do I not get directly involved myself, because the committee meetings are at times that do not suit someone who does not get home from work until 7.00 at night most days. If that were not the case and I could actually get to meetings then I would more than happily be involved.

Surely they will only have a meeting once a month though

 

[Snelly]

Hope it's not that posh Snelly, I am playing there on Sunday

It is a special occasion place. Yes it is posh and there are a few more rules than other courses may have but that aside, it is absolutely superb. You could not wish for a better day of golf and I hope you get good weather.

You will fit in perfectly mate.

 

[Snelly]

Its a genusine question. Most clubs dont have a joining fee and yours like, D4Ss will go at some point. It will still be the same club I guess, but some of you seem to think that clubs with joining fees are somehow of a better standing than those without.

I don't think a joining fee will disappear from the most prestigious clubs in the UK any time soon. They charge a premium because they are premium venues. Logically, in most cases, this means they are much better than courses without a joining fee.

It is pointless to debate this with you though, that much is clear. Your stance (and others) can be pared down to - I want to be a member at wherever I want with no strings attached and at low cost. Any possible barrier to this is then loosely termed as elitist, snobby or bad for the game. But what you really mean is that it is bad for individuals who cannot have exactly what they want, entirely on their terms.

A stupid perspective as frankly, life is just not like that.

 

[JCW]

people stay at parkstone because its a cracking course, not because they paid a joining fee though surely?

Yes the course is in great nick , best condition course in the county , Broadstone is the best track but in not so good condition currently , problems with the greens , anytime you in the area and want to play parkstone drop me a line ...............EYG

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

So basically the better courses charge the most and have a joining fee

You want to be able to be a member of such clubs but can't justify spending that much money because you don't play enough so you want them to change their membership so that you can pay a smaller fee ?

Why should a club do that when they have people willing to pay what is needed to join ?

It seems you want to be affordable for you ? - well I'm sure there will be clubs that you can play at but its seem you want the best but not willing to pay the going rate

Whoa whoa whoa there.
I never said I want to join a top club.
What I'm saying is that if we ONLY have the option of goat track or £1k+ fee + similar subscription there will be fewer golfers in the long run.
If ALL clubs have a joining fee, which is what you are advocating, then fewer younger players will take the game up seriously.
Which eventually will cause a decline across the whole industry.
You said earlier that golf is an expensive game so only those that can afford it should join clubs - the rest are relegated to pay and play.
All I'm saying is a lot of people paying a smaller amount and using the course less can also be a way of creating income and bringing new people into the club.
You want the game to be elitist. I say that while there will always be an elite, it should only be one permutation, and the game should be more inclusive.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Whoa whoa whoa there.
I never said I want to join a top club.
What I'm saying is that if we ONLY have the option of goat track or £1k+ fee + similar subscription there will be fewer golfers in the long run.
If ALL clubs have a joining fee, which is what you are advocating, then fewer younger players will take the game up seriously.
Which eventually will cause a decline across the whole industry.
You said earlier that golf is an expensive game so only those that can afford it should join clubs - the rest are relegated to pay and play.
All I'm saying is a lot of people paying a smaller amount and using the course less can also be a way of creating income and bringing new people into the club.
You want the game to be elitist. I say that while there will always be an elite, it should only be one permutation, and the game should be more inclusive.

Sorry but I don't think I have ever suggested that all clubs should have a joining fee ?!

I also never said that only those that can afford should join clubs ?!

I also have never said I want the game to be elitist ?!

I did say that there were plenty of options for pay and play for people that can't justify the cost of membership to a golf club

 

[DCB]

Come on gents, let's read carefully before blowing off steam if you disagree with what someone else has posted. Let's keep it civil and on track please.

 

[GB72]

For me it is not about getting something for nothing, far from it. My views I guess comes from personal experience, paying my fees and things not being as expected.
If I had joined a club, paid a joining fee and a bar levy and everything was fine then there would be no issued. Ironically, there would also be no need for a bar levy and joining fee to keep me a member as I would be happy to stay and more than happy to use the bar.
When you join a club and the membership experience is not what you were led to believe then it is easy to feel hard done by, to feel tied in and to rally against the joining fee. That is nobody’s fault necessarily, simply the fact that expectations do not match but one party feels tied in to staying whilst the other sits pretty with your money. I am sure that others would feel the same if, lets say, the quality of course maintenance went sharply down hill after year one.
The other issue, as used to be the case near me, is when even the most mediocre courses were charging a joining fee. On that basis it is clearly a hurdle to some getting in to golf if there is a large, up front cost before you get to play (bear in mind that there are no municipal courses that near where I live). That is probably the clearest answer that I can give to the original question, yes they are a hurdle to people taking up the game where there is no obvious alternative.
Now, as for them being elitist, I can see in my area how that reputation would come about. I do not live in a wealthy area and much of Grantham is actually pretty poor. That meant that the joining fee charged by my club at the time would have represented a social divide between the haves and have nots in the town so far as golf was concerned. To this day members of other clubs around the town have come to see my club as representing everything that they see bad about the game. Now whether that is true is up for debate and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
That is about as close as I can get to my feelings about joining fees.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

OK, you mentioned earlier about simple analogies, here is one for you.........

2 private clubs in your area, neither has a joining fee and both have 500 members each paying £1000 a year. Club A has an issue of some description, lets say disease in the greens. The members get cheesed off and at the end of the year half of them decide to leave and join club B which is in much better condition. So now you have 250 members at club A and 750 members at club B. Club A needs lots of money to remedy the issue with the greens but doesn't have it as their income has been reduced by 50% and now club B is flourishing and getting better because their income has increased massively. So club A is now on a downward spiral and getting worse, more people want to leave and join club B but they are now full and have a waiting list. Club A could ultimately go bust and close leaving the remaining members with nowhere to play.

So is this making golf inclusive to all?

This analogy is extremely simplistic but if both clubs had joining fees the chances are few(er) people would have left club A in the first place and they would have been able to resolve the issues and get back on track, people would have had a choice where to play.

I have paid 2 joining fees in my time and I believe they are a protective mechanism to help clubs survive.

A reasonable argument well put..
I just happen to disagree with it to a point.
Once the cheesed off members start to leave there will still be a commitment to the rest of the years subs.
This is when the club positively markets itself with its flexible memberships.
You also give ownership of the problem to the members and local community and use the pr / social media etc to show the improvement as it comes.
Then you reward the loyal members.

Obviously you scenario works if there are only 1000 golfers to play with. But if there is potential for more flexible members then you could end up with both clubs benefitting in the long run.
Let me repeat. I'm not anti joining fees. I just think only the top niche should use them and the average clubs should be looking for ways to increase the golfing fraternity for long term benefit.
I think if too many average clubs have joining fees, membership will decline over the next generation or so.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

I am not sure you are quite the right fit for the West Sussex either.

That's very rude.

You don't know if I openly fart in public, or sneak one out and blame the dog.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

Sorry but I don't think I have ever suggested that all clubs should have a joining fee ?!

I also never said that only those that can afford should join clubs ?!

I also have never said I want the game to be elitist ?!

I did say that there were plenty of options for pay and play for people that can't justify the cost of membership to a golf club

Good, we agree then 😀
When I'm good enough you can invite me round and I'll get the beers....

The only thing is you might have given up the game by the time I'm good enough.
👍

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

Come on gents, let's read carefully before blowing off steam if you disagree with what someone else has posted. Let's keep it civil and on track please.

I don't think there's been any lack of civility here, just basic disaagreements on the way forward.

If we fully defined our terms so there was no chance of misinterpretation each post would be 2 pages long.

This way is much more fun

😎