Any Software Devs out there?

[Paul77]

I created a thread a few weeks ago about job choices etc etc. Some might have seen it. I guess this could be an extension of that thread for people who have been involved in it.

In 2005 I done my fast track HNC Computing in 6 months. I did Event Driven programming in VB6 and turned my final project, a medical practice database system for patient records, in within a week of getting the brief for it. I loved programming but for other reasons I did go that route and went into tech support.

I've revisited coding years later with writing 3 Android apps (mostly soundboard apps), then fell away from that because of time constraints and lack of any real idea of problem solving crash reports.

Anyway....

Long story short, it just keeps niggling at me to take it up again. Based on my previous small experience I'm left wondering;

Is it too late to start a fresh? (38 years old now)
Is there a natural progression from VB6? (C#?)
Is there coding systems dying out, not worth learning?

I've noticed any job advert details a list of coding languages that are required and it amost fills me with first tee fear at the prospect of needing to learn, Python, Ruby, C#, C++ etc etc. The salaray is attractive and worth the push, however, I don't really want to start down a road that will lead no where.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Rooter]

I believe Snelly is in the mobile sw dev line of business, drop him a pm.

 

[ruff-driver]

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anyway.

nI' lut ngaj, 'oH neH pol niggle DeSDu' chongaghpa' 'oH woHnIS jatlhqa'. waw' previous mach SIQpu'bogh chuqDaj'e' SIv;

tlhoy paS start ghoQ? (38 ben DaH)
tu'lu' natural progression vo' vb6? (C#?)
tu'lu' Hegh, wej worth learning pat ngoq?

vay' job details jIH chaw'nIS tetlh amost ngoq Hol 'ej QuQ 'e' poQ 'oH 'ej jaghmeyjaj wa'DIch tee legh python, Ruby, [taH vIlopQo' jay', c++ etc etc ghoj, nIS prospect advert tu' jIH. salaray qIy'amo 'ej worth yuv, 'ach start vI'ogh, pagh nuqDaq Dev road qar qar vIneHbe'.

'IwlIj jachjaj

I've translated your op into klingon as it may be easier for some members to understand ,
I have a zx spectrum with 32kb ram pack in the loft if that can help you

 

[FairwayDodger]

I think it depends what sort of opportunities you'd be looking for and what you longer term aspirations are. For example, most of the demand where I am is for java/J2E skills.

However, I'd caveat it heavily in that the vast bulk of such development nowadays is done offshore or by landed labour or graduates. i.e. as cheaply as possible. So might not be the way into a long and fulfilling career.

 

[Snelly]

I think it depends what sort of opportunities you'd be looking for and what you longer term aspirations are. For example, most of the demand where I am is for java/J2E skills.

However, I'd caveat it heavily in that the vast bulk of such development nowadays is done offshore or by landed labour or graduates. i.e. as cheaply as possible. So might not be the way into a long and fulfilling career.

I agree with the first paragraph but not the second.

Java would be the learning path I would recommend. That and probably more specifically, mobile. Apple too.

It is not my experience (Over 20 years in IT and particularly application development) that the vast bulk of development is done off shore. Far from it. We have spent £18M on Java development over the past decade and offshore development would have been hugely problematic for a company like ours. Loads of reasons why it is a bad idea although I accept that it can work well if the right framework is in place.

There are lots of opportunities for good Java people. I am looking for one right now in fact!

 

[FairwayDodger]

It is not my experience (Over 20 years in IT and particularly application development) that the vast bulk of development is done off shore. Far from it. We have spent £18M on Java development over the past decade and offshore development would have been hugely problematic for a company like ours. Loads of reasons why it is a bad idea although I accept that it can work well if the right framework is in place.

Probably varies then in different companies and/or sectors. Sounds like I have similar levels of experience to yourself and, while we still do a certain amount of development locally, there is an ever-increasing drive to take more offshore. Any proposals that favour local rather than offshore development are heavily scrutinised with the bid team challenged to justify that decision.

I'm not a fan off offshore, BTW, just describing my experience.

 

[Paul77]

Cheers for the replies. I actually started the Python course on code academy. Halfway through it. Just to get a feel for it again. Java for android I did by looking up code for things I wanted to achieve in my app. Not really ideal.


Everyone points to Java when I ask right enough. It's good that if I invested the time in that it could prove useful. Don't doubt though that's there's a ton of great devs out there already looking for work.

 

[Fyldewhite]

Can't really advise on what the "hot topics" are at present but certainly not the client-server windows applications I was developing 20 years ago!! All Web/Java/Cloud/php etc these days and my skills have been left well behind due to moving to different areas. What I would say though is good luck if you go down that route. It was the most enjoyable and rewarding 6 years of my career for sure. Absolutely loved it.

 

[Dan2501]

Pretty much everything at my place is written in C#, ASP.net MVC and Angular JS. Angular is awesome, well worth learning.

 

[Paul77]

I think that's where it gets confusing. So many different versions of java. There's certainly a lot of jobs going on S1Jobs for J2EE devs.

I did consider learning Swift for iPhone development, but I can count on one hand the amount of times I've downloaded an app this year for my phone. I think you really need a brilliant idea for it to work on that platform. Silicone valley certainly seems to be the place to be to hatch new hot start ups.

I took the decision to sell my Mac the other day so that's xCode out the window for now. Back to Windows for me.

 

[SocketRocket]

From my experience you need to be a developer in a sector where the product is very complex and technical to be earning big bucks. Like many other professions the fewer people competent in the field the higher the rewards but this will often require the Developer to not only be competent in a particular programming language but also may require them to have a high level of competence with maths and physics for example.

 

[Paul77]

have a high level of competence with maths and physics for example.

Already started noticing this with Python. == != <= =>, and or not being highly used syntax parameters. Maths was never my strong point.

I'm actually struggling to find out what has been written in java. All people keep saying online is that it's everywhere. It's ok learning about int's, booleans and the like but when you're sitting with Netbeans open and no real world examples of where to start, it's a bit odd. It seems to be enterprise apps like financial systems that need Java devs. Are you just meant to know the language then walk into something that's been written already?

I have that "What do I want to write in *insert coding language*" feeling. With VB6 you had a form, a GUI and inserted buttons, labels, text boxes, tabs etc then coded each event to an output.

I essentially would like to do that type of coding, but find it hard to see how I can get code to appear as a window based program. I know the answer is likely going to be to learn C# or something.

 

[Paul77]

lol It's fun to learn this type of stuff. Wrote my first code after the Hello World.

public static void main(String[] args) {
        int myAge;
        myAge = 38;
        
        String myName = "Paul Stewart ";
       
        
        System.out.println(myName + myAge);
}

Result? Paul Stewart 38

Lol Go me....sigh.... long way to go.

if feelingDown = True:
print "Keep Going!!"
Else:
print "Did you give up that easy?"

 

[Jimaroid]

If it's slow, buggy and generally abysmal to use its probably Java.

JavaScript is not Java and holds an entirely different place in the future.

I'm away camping at the moment but I'll chip in my advice when I get home next week. Been writing various types of software for over 20 years and can give you a few pointers. Pun intended.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Pun intended.

Geek humour, got to love it!

 

[Paul77]

If it's slow, buggy and generally abysmal to use its probably Java.

JavaScript is not Java and holds an entirely different place in the future.

I'm away camping at the moment but I'll chip in my advice when I get home next week. Been writing various types of software for over 20 years and can give you a few pointers. Pun intended.

Appreciate that.

ENjoy the trip. Our File Server Raid controller just died. Fun times. OT for me.

 

[Dan2501]

Not 100% sure of the job market, but web development seems to be a good direction to go ATM, so much is being developed for the web right now, and as far as I'm aware (I may be wrong), not much of it is written in Java. Java is great for learning OOP principles though, as a lot of those principles apply across a load of languages Java, C#, C, C++, etc etc.

I graduated last year in Web Development, and have learnt so much more since working in a commercial environment. So many options and so many ways to do different things. Thousands of JavaScript libraries, hundreds of CMS's, ridiculous number of options in regards to back-end development but all can do the same job. CodeAcademy is a good place to start though, the JavaScript, AngularJS and JQuery courses are excellent. Personally I've always preferred front-end development, I love creating something which has a pretty looking visual output and does cool stuff. I'd much rather design a pretty UX than a well constructed piece of TDD for a section of the back-end of an application, but that's just me. You need to find what you like.

 

[Paul77]

Good place to start there Dan. I was thrown into web admin in my job. Do updates on the schools website. No HTML or CSS training and using Dreamweaver. It was dead easy, but it grew from that to me creating my own sites for little things in HTML and CSS. The guy that works with me is a bit of a whizz with it all so I don't get to practice it much now. Everything gets given to him.

The school went with a CMS for their site and I heard a lot of devs saying that it's kind of the way it's going now. Create a good CMS and deliver a fancy front end for them and you've done well. No idea how true that is.

Still interests me, but a lot of coding jobs actually require a lot more knowledge in other languages than just the primary. Maybe because it's all being fused in web apps.

I think it's one of these things where you need to be in the thick of it everyday in a job or you're lost. My boss doesn't see the point in me learning anything to do with code so it's difficult for me to learn there despite it being the perfect environment for learning.

Whatever I decide to do, all I know is that desktop support is boring. We had a server drive fail yesterday and my job was exciting for about 30 mins.

 

[Jimaroid]

As promised, Paul77.

I shall get the honest but bad news out of the way first - you'll find it very difficult to get a job in software engineering. If you're not a programmer already you face a very, very big challenge to get the necessary skills and experience to compete with people that are already better. Software development is not just a matter of learning a particular programming language, you need to understand a huge range of concepts and good engineers are those who are able to apply development concepts, practices and patterns to tasks and problems effectively. Even as a junior engineer you have a lot to catching up to do, I know a number of computer science graduates who are really struggling for employment. They're just not good enough despite the paper qualifications. Sorry, but you've got a lot of catching up to do.

The good news is don't be put off. I have worked with a chef and a stable girl who both moved into software development and turned out to be pretty good at it. Computers had been a spare time hobby for them and they both caught an opportunity that fitted their hobbyist skillsets. But there's the rub, they had put years of spare time effort into hobbyist computing that they could then turn into a career. In their cases, one of them was a musician who'd taught themselves to make audio plugins and the other went through an Open University degree to learn Java.

It's also good news now that the barrier to entry is much lower as anyone can set themselves up as a mobile app developer for next to nothing. And sometimes they can be very successful with a nice idea and a lot of luck. A minority of people have made a lot of money from app development on their own but the other 99.9999% have made nothing. There's nothing stopping you from trying an idea in your spare time and the experience of going through the whole development lifecycle (even on your own) is very valuable. But... You say you've done something like this already with Android and Soundboard and you were put off by bug fixing? The reality is a huge proportion of software development is bug fixing and maintenance, you have to learn to like it as part of the challenge.

Lastly, what's best to learn? This is a very difficult question because different technologies are used in different industries.

Right now I'd be looking into the future of application development as it's undergoing massive ideological change with a move towards Web/Cloud technologies. HTML5 and various JavaScript frameworks are in increasing demand and will probably become more valuable in the next few years. If you look at something like Visual Studio Code https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/code-vs.aspx this is an example of where I think the future of application development lies. VS Code is a development environment for writing web and cloud apps, and is itself created as a standalone web app (it's actually built around the Google Chromium engine). The jargon in this field is ludicrous, but I think these are the technologies to be getting interested in for the future and a lot of developers are massively behind this curve, so you can look at it as an opportunity to get the jump on them.

I do hope all that doesn't put you off and gives you something to think about.

 

[Paul77]

Thanks alot Jim for the insight. I knew it would be a mountain to climb. I know how far I've come in my own job to get the experience I have and for a new person to get that would take ages. I suspect the same in programming. I kind of thought it would be an uhill struggle if you hadn't started in the industry as a junior or something.

It's funny, because everytime I pick up a book, my laptop or start anything to do with coding, I get taken away to do something else. I actually started really well in Java last week there. One night sat there doing examples of work and started tweaking it to generate different outputs, then deliberately tried breaking it to see what the outcome was. Started looking into public data hacking too but my job in IT is just taking over. Server drive died on friday and some idiot pulled the faulty drive out and plugged it back in and corrupted the RAID array. Luckily we have solid backups.

Just always seems to be something that gets in the way. You need the support of others around you to make something work and at this moment i'm struggling for time. Echoes the issues I had with creating Android apps. Make the app no bother but bug fixing wasn't done because I never had the time to invest in it. I ended up removing the apps from the market as a result.

You have certainly confirmed what I thought

Thanks