bobmac
Major Champion
Unless you can prove the wind moved it. Sneaky
18 2a or 2b
Another rules question for you
- Thread starter bobmac
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Unless you can prove the wind moved it. Sneaky
18 2a or 2b
Aztecs27
Money List Winner
lol. What defines "prove"? Does it just mean "it's windy, so if the ball moves, assume it's the wind"? Or do you need to get scientific proof of the wind generating enough energy to move the ball from it's resting place? 
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Cheers Aztecs.
I think I have now tracked it down under Decision 18-2b/4 Ball Moves After Player Grounds Club But Before Stance Completed.
which says
"A player has not addressed the ball until he completes taking his stance, i.e. his feet are essentially in the position in which he normally places them when making a stroke.
However, if the ball moved after the club was grounded but before the player had completed taking his stance, he incurs a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a for having caused the ball to move and must replace the ball, unless there is strong evidence that wind or some other agency caused the ball to move."
However that refers to a situation where the player had already grounded his club and there is only a penalty if he caused the ball to move (i.e. it wasn't the wind).
Have a look at Decision 18-2b/1 Ball Moves After Stance Taken But Before Address
"Q. Outside a hazard, the player took his stance but did not ground his club. The ball moved. What is the ruling?
A. As the player had not addressed the ball, he did not incur a penalty under Rule 18-2b (see Definition of “Addressing the Ballâ€).
If however, the player caused the ball to move, he was subject to penalty and the ball should have been replaced (Rule 18-2a)"
As Bob points out there are 2 rules at work here 18-2a and 18-2b covering different situations.
18-2a penalty if player causes ball to move.
18-2b penalty if ball moves after address (whatever reason).
Think that's right but happy to be corrected if not.
I think I have now tracked it down under Decision 18-2b/4 Ball Moves After Player Grounds Club But Before Stance Completed.
which says
"A player has not addressed the ball until he completes taking his stance, i.e. his feet are essentially in the position in which he normally places them when making a stroke.
However, if the ball moved after the club was grounded but before the player had completed taking his stance, he incurs a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a for having caused the ball to move and must replace the ball, unless there is strong evidence that wind or some other agency caused the ball to move."
However that refers to a situation where the player had already grounded his club and there is only a penalty if he caused the ball to move (i.e. it wasn't the wind).
Have a look at Decision 18-2b/1 Ball Moves After Stance Taken But Before Address
"Q. Outside a hazard, the player took his stance but did not ground his club. The ball moved. What is the ruling?
A. As the player had not addressed the ball, he did not incur a penalty under Rule 18-2b (see Definition of “Addressing the Ballâ€).
If however, the player caused the ball to move, he was subject to penalty and the ball should have been replaced (Rule 18-2a)"
As Bob points out there are 2 rules at work here 18-2a and 18-2b covering different situations.
18-2a penalty if player causes ball to move.
18-2b penalty if ball moves after address (whatever reason).
Think that's right but happy to be corrected if not.
bobmac
Major Champion
You could measure the wind speed and direction using your iphone and compass.........no wait, maybe not 
Aztecs27
Money List Winner
You could measure the wind speed and direction using your iphone and compass.........no wait, maybe not
Losttheplot
Tour Rookie
You could measure the wind speed and direction using your iphone and compass.........no wait, maybe not
barrybridges
Head Pro
I don't want to sound controversial here, but isn't this rule in direct contravention of one of the other rules.
Yesterday I posted this question:
"If I address the ball on the tee and accidentally knock the ball off the tee with my driver without making a swing, does it count as a stroke?"
The answer is NO; you need to intend to make a stroke or attempt to make a stroke.
So, how come when addressing a ball with your putter it counts as a stroke without you even attempting to make a stroke.
In that situation it sounds even more bizarre because you haven't even touched the ball (accidentally); there has been no contact at all.
Why is it that addressing a ball with one club causes you to incur a stroke if the ball moves WITHOUT your influence, whereas addressing the ball with a different club does not cause you to incur a stroke if the ball moves WITH your influence?
Surely these two rules are totally inconsistent with one another?
Yesterday I posted this question:
"If I address the ball on the tee and accidentally knock the ball off the tee with my driver without making a swing, does it count as a stroke?"
The answer is NO; you need to intend to make a stroke or attempt to make a stroke.
So, how come when addressing a ball with your putter it counts as a stroke without you even attempting to make a stroke.
In that situation it sounds even more bizarre because you haven't even touched the ball (accidentally); there has been no contact at all.
Why is it that addressing a ball with one club causes you to incur a stroke if the ball moves WITHOUT your influence, whereas addressing the ball with a different club does not cause you to incur a stroke if the ball moves WITH your influence?
Surely these two rules are totally inconsistent with one another?
On the tee box, your ball isn't in play when you accidentally knock it off it's tee. If you moved it accidentally out on the fairway, you would need to replace it under penalty.
Ball in play is the key difference.
barrybridges
Head Pro
But surely that's a technical difference rather than a practical one.
What does 'in play' mean? I mean...I know what it means...but it doesn't make much practical difference to the situation.
It sounds like a technical reason to explain the two rulings. It's entirely arbitrary that the ball is not 'in play' on the tee. It could just as well be 'in play' when you place it on the tee, if the R&A were to decide so.
I fail to understand why a golfer should be penalised by something totally outside of their control whilst not punished for something totally within their control.
What does 'in play' mean? I mean...I know what it means...but it doesn't make much practical difference to the situation.
It sounds like a technical reason to explain the two rulings. It's entirely arbitrary that the ball is not 'in play' on the tee. It could just as well be 'in play' when you place it on the tee, if the R&A were to decide so.
I fail to understand why a golfer should be penalised by something totally outside of their control whilst not punished for something totally within their control.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
Moving the ball off a tee, and replaceing it confers no advantage.
Moving a ball and replacing it while in play could do, depending on how accurately it is replaced.
Moving a ball and replacing it while in play could do, depending on how accurately it is replaced.
turbowoowoo
Assistant Pro
Once you play the ball from the tee its 'in play' until you get it in that little bugger of a hole....
Thanks guys this thread has been very enlightening and, I can appreciate the need to have the two rules for addressing a ball.
Thanks guys this thread has been very enlightening and, I can appreciate the need to have the two rules for addressing a ball.
Matty
Tour Rookie
I hope this is an area that is look at in the Rules review that's coming up. If any player addresses a ball on a green and then the ball is moved by the wind I think it a tad unfair that this is a penalty.
The placing of the club being the ball could, in some circumstances, change the way the wind flows near to the ball and cause it to move but that is not intentional, so IMO it should not be a penalty, it should be replaced and played.
If the wind is so strong that repeated placing of the ball fails then play it as it lies.
The placing of the club being the ball could, in some circumstances, change the way the wind flows near to the ball and cause it to move but that is not intentional, so IMO it should not be a penalty, it should be replaced and played.
If the wind is so strong that repeated placing of the ball fails then play it as it lies.
bobmac
Major Champion
So, if the ball is blown by the wind, you're only penalised if you have addressed the ball by taking your normal stance and grounding the putter behind the ball.
Matty
Tour Rookie
That won't really work - all you'd need to do then is hover the putter and there would never be a penalty.
The ball should be played from where it cam to rest. If the wind moves the ball when you are not there, well who is to know other than in the professional game with all it's cameras and spectators.
However, if the ball moves while you are there did you make it so? Was it not the wind? In which case surely the sensible thing to do is replace the ball to where it moved from and play your shot. If this is not possible then it's a 'rub of the green' so play it as it lies.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
I agree they could review this rule (18-2b). As the Rules stand, if the ball moves after address (i.e. player has taken stance and grounded club) it is a penalty even if it is clear on super slow mo that the player didn't touch it.
As the above posts explain, if you haven't addressed the ball it isn't a penalty so long as it is clear that something else caused the ball to move.
There might be a case for changing Rule 18-2b when the ball is on the green (too difficult to police elsewhere I'd say) to the effect that even after addressing the ball there is no penalty just because the ball moves, only if the player moves it. Ball would simply be replaced. So it would be in line with 18-2a. I don't think that would undermine the principles of the game.
I seem to remember they changed the old rule that penalised you if you moved a loose impediment near your ball and the ball moved. That used to be an automatic penalty, but now it's only a penalty if moving the loose impediment actually causes the ball to move.
Getting a brain ache with all these rules queries today
As the above posts explain, if you haven't addressed the ball it isn't a penalty so long as it is clear that something else caused the ball to move.
There might be a case for changing Rule 18-2b when the ball is on the green (too difficult to police elsewhere I'd say) to the effect that even after addressing the ball there is no penalty just because the ball moves, only if the player moves it. Ball would simply be replaced. So it would be in line with 18-2a. I don't think that would undermine the principles of the game.
I seem to remember they changed the old rule that penalised you if you moved a loose impediment near your ball and the ball moved. That used to be an automatic penalty, but now it's only a penalty if moving the loose impediment actually causes the ball to move.
Getting a brain ache with all these rules queries today
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