Andy bloody carroll

[MadAdey]

A1ex, you say they do not create many chances. Anyone who watches a lot of football would realise they have created multiple good chances every match. Look at these games that we should have got more from, going by the stats and how many attempts we created from inside the box.

​

Take these stats into account showing shots from inside the box:

Man City 5 - 7 Liverpool Result 3 - 0
Liverpool 17 - 1 Blackburn Result 1 - 1
Fulham 7 - 9 Liverpool Result 1 - 0
Liverpool 14 - 4 Man City Result 1 - 1
Liverpool 15 - 4 Swansea Result 0 - 0
Liverpool 21 - 4 Norwich Result 1 - 1
Stoke 2 - 13 Liverpool Result 1 - 0

So 7 games there, 4 from a possible 21 points. Now look at how many chances have been created from inside the box. Could have easily been 5 wins and 2 draws making 17 points that could have been got with more clinical finishing. Remember those are just from inside the box. When you put total shots that have been created into account it is ridiculous, but I do not look at them as those only come off once in a blue moon. So the facts are we have created plenty of chances to score just not taken any of them.





​

 

[chris661]

You can talk about all the stats you want, the only stat that matters at the end of a game is the score and frankly Liverpool don't score enough. Now whether that is down to Carroll or not doesn't matter but as a team liverpool are just not good enough.

 

[MadAdey]

You can talk about all the stats you want, the only stat that matters at the end of a game is the score and frankly Liverpool don't score enough. Now whether that is down to Carroll or not doesn't matter but as a team liverpool are just not good enough.

That is the point I am making. I am not moaning about bad luck or the penalty we did not get given, or the disallowed goal from the dodgy offside call, but the lack of finishing ability that is being seen every game. 86 shots form inside the box in those games and only 3 goals scored is embarrassing.

 

[One Planer]

86 shots form inside the box in those games and only 3 goals scored is embarrassing.

When you put it like that, It sure is!!!!

 

[forefortheday]

I remember people saying the same things about Thierry Henry and Christiano Ronaldo when they moved into the Premier league.

Time will tell.

Andy Carroll should never be mentioned in the same breath as those two.

He will never, ever, ever be anywhere near as good as either of them simple as.

If he get's 15 goals in any season it will be a miracle with his ability.

 

[MadAdey]

When you put it like that, It sure is!!!!

To make it even worse, this season they have had a total of 326 shots with 208 from inside the box, but only scored 24 from all those chances. With them having the best defence in the league until the other night they have now only conceded 18, 2nd best now. So going off the 2 stats they are defending well, but not by getting lots behind the ball, as they are obviously attacking to create that many chances. So for anyone to say the team is not good enough is way off the mark, as it is clear the defence is doing their job, and the midfield is getting the ball into positions to create chances. The average is 15 shots a game, with 10 from inside the box. But only averaging 1.2 goals a game is just not good enough. It is perfectly clear why they are 14 points behind. When we pushed Man Untied a few years ago we had Torres up there smashing them in for fun, who do we have now?

I am just so so frustrated with the lack of goals. Carroll in my eyes would have been worth a punt at 15-20 milllion, but £35M...................:rofl:

 

[One Planer]

Andy Carroll should never be mentioned in the same breath as those two.

He will never, ever, ever be anywhere near as good as either of them simple as.

If he get's 15 goals in any season it will be a miracle with his ability.

And you know this FOR SURE?

The lad is 22 he has plenty of time to learn and improve. I agree the price paid was highly inflated, is that Carrolls fault?

I still think he's got the potential, time will tell.

 

[forefortheday]

And you know this FOR SURE?

The lad is 22 he has plenty of time to learn and improve. I agree the price paid was highly inflated, is that Carrolls fault?

I still think he's got the potential, time will tell.

Potential's one thing actually doing anything with it is another.

Can you seriously suggest you see him reaching the level of either of the players you mentioned?

Ronaldo had won 2 league titles, the Champions League and a League Cup by the age of 23, If you are lucky he will have won an FA Cup by the same age.

Price is nothing to do with it you mentioned him in the same breath as two of the greatest players to play in the Premier League hence the reply.

 

[One Planer]

Potential's one thing actually doing anything with it is another.

Can you seriously suggest you see him reaching the level of either of the players you mentioned?

Ronaldo had won 2 league titles, the Champions League and a League Cup by the age of 23, If you are lucky he will have won an FA Cup by the same age.

Price is nothing to do with it you mentioned him in the same breath as two of the greatest players to play in the Premier League hence the reply.

You're quite right but there must be something to him or why spend that sort of cash, or even half it.

What did they spend on Charlie Adam (was it 20M ???) is he worth that? He's paid to deliver quality service into strikers. The last few games I've seem he hasn't beat the first man when crossing from open play or a corner. As was said before, 1 good season doesn't make a good player, however he showed his potential last year with Blackpool, just as Carroll did at Newcastle.

I think he showed glimpses of what he's capable of at 'Pool but mainly at Newcastle. My point about his price was that all the conjecture about it in the media and pundits is only going to play on his mind. Just as it is with Torres at Chelsea now.

 

[A1ex]

A1ex, you say they do not create many chances. Anyone who watches a lot of football would realise they have created multiple good chances every match. Look at these games that we should have got more from, going by the stats and how many attempts we created from inside the box.

​

Take these stats into account showing shots from inside the box:

Man City 5 - 7 Liverpool Result 3 - 0
Liverpool 17 - 1 Blackburn Result 1 - 1
Fulham 7 - 9 Liverpool Result 1 - 0
Liverpool 14 - 4 Man City Result 1 - 1
Liverpool 15 - 4 Swansea Result 0 - 0
Liverpool 21 - 4 Norwich Result 1 - 1
Stoke 2 - 13 Liverpool Result 1 - 0

So 7 games there, 4 from a possible 21 points. Now look at how many chances have been created from inside the box. Could have easily been 5 wins and 2 draws making 17 points that could have been got with more clinical finishing. Remember those are just from inside the box. When you put total shots that have been created into account it is ridiculous, but I do not look at them as those only come off once in a blue moon. So the facts are we have created plenty of chances to score just not taken any of them.





​

Again you miss the point. I raised a question about how many really good chances you create.

The stats are black and white. Inside the box can mean 1 foot inside or from 2 yards. According to your stats they're both the same. A shot from just inside with 3-4 defenders blocking is counted the same as a one on one or a free shot from inside the 6 yard box.

You say you had 7 shots against City from inside the box, as an example. There was only 1 of those that can be classed as a great chance. You can't say 'could easily' have been a win just because you had more pot shots than anyone else. Headers also count in these stats by the way, which overstates your efforts from inside the box.

Liverpool's scoring record is worse than 2 teams in the relegation zone and you have better strikers than Blackburn and Bolton. Poor finishing isn't the only reason for that.

Your position of 6th is exactly where you'll finish untill you inject genuine quality into the midfield and attack. Your defence has been solid, yet you can bet as soon as you start scoring it will fall to pieces. Football has a way of doing that :mmm:

 

[Tiger]

I think you are all missing a point here. Kenny's tactics are well out of date. Carroll and Suarez a modern day Toshack and Keegan? Charlie Adam a modern day (poor mans) Jan Molby? The game's got quicker and formations are more fluid (look at Man City's front four and how they switch positions). I don't think he has spent at all well in the transfer market:

Andy Carroll	31 January 2011	35,000,000	Newcastle United
Luis Suarez	31 January 2011	22,700,000	Ajax
Stewart Downing	July 15 2011	20,000,000	Aston Villa
Jordan Henderson	9 June 2011	16,000,000	Sunderland
Charlie Adam	July 2011	7,500,000	Blackpool
Sebastien Coates	30 August 2011	7,000,000	Nacional
Jose Enrique	12 August 2011	6,000,000	Newcastle United

£114million and one star play and a solid left back is all he has to show for it. Over the odds for the wrong players that he has stuck in the wrong formation.

 

[MadAdey]

Again you miss the point. I raised a question about how many really good chances you create.

The stats are black and white. Inside the box can mean 1 foot inside or from 2 yards. According to your stats they're both the same. A shot from just inside with 3-4 defenders blocking is counted the same as a one on one or a free shot from inside the 6 yard box.

You say you had 7 shots against City from inside the box, as an example. There was only 1 of those that can be classed as a great chance. You can't say 'could easily' have been a win just because you had more pot shots than anyone else. Headers also count in these stats by the way, which overstates your efforts from inside the box.

Liverpool's scoring record is worse than 2 teams in the relegation zone and you have better strikers than Blackburn and Bolton. Poor finishing isn't the only reason for that.

Your position of 6th is exactly where you'll finish untill you inject genuine quality into the midfield and attack. Your defence has been solid, yet you can bet as soon as you start scoring it will fall to pieces. Football has a way of doing that :mmm:

To create that many chances in the box you must have created some good goal scoring opportunities. Downing and Kuyt both had amazing chances in the box the other night. Maxi made himself half a chance by rolling round a defender and then putting it wide. Man City on the other hand did not really have any good chances in the box either. 1st goal Reina mis-judged a shot, 2nd goal Johnson lost his man and left him with a free header and the 3rd goal was irrelivant as we were pushing forward to get back in the game and left Skyrtl one on one with Yaya Toure, which to be fair 99% of defenders would have struggled to stop him from getting a shot in without making a foul.

But that sums up the point of my argument. Even the teams at the top do not create multiple clear cut scoring opportunities in the box but they still make the most of the chances they do get. How many has Aguero scored this from nothing in the box? They have not all been clear cut chances.

I agree the scoring record is terrible. Thank god the defence is at last looking the best it has since the days of Carragher and Hyppia, or we would be in the bottom half.

Our current attacking options that look like getting us goals are Gerrard (just returned from injury), Bellamy (great signing) and Suarez (banned for 8 games). Attacking options that do not score are Downing (£20M), Kuyt (works his arse off but not going to score loads of goals) and Carroll (£35M). Henderson has been mentioned in all this but that is irrelevant to me. He is one for the future. Carroll was bought as the replacement for Torres.

 

[MadAdey]

I think you are all missing a point here. Kenny's tactics are well out of date. Carroll and Suarez a modern day Toshack and Keegan? Charlie Adam a modern day (poor mans) Jan Molby? The game's got quicker and formations are more fluid (look at Man City's front four and how they switch positions). I don't think he has spent at all well in the transfer market:

Andy Carroll	31 January 2011	35,000,000	Newcastle United
Luis Suarez	31 January 2011	22,700,000	Ajax
Stewart Downing	July 15 2011	20,000,000	Aston Villa
Jordan Henderson	9 June 2011	16,000,000	Sunderland
Charlie Adam	July 2011	7,500,000	Blackpool
Sebastien Coates	30 August 2011	7,000,000	Nacional
Jose Enrique	12 August 2011	6,000,000	Newcastle United

£114million and one star play and a solid left back is all he has to show for it. Over the odds for the wrong players that he has stuck in the wrong formation.

Enrique is a great buy for that money.
Coates is a young powerful defender bought with a view to the future, £7M you do not expect a player that will just turn up and turn it straight on.
Adam, not a lot of money for a Premier league Midfielder really is it so worth a punt.
Henderson is a talented young English Midfielder that cost £16M, not a huge amount when you look at what money has been spent. Has shown at times some great touches. When Gerrard was his age you did not know if he would be the player he turned into. In 12 months time Henderson could end up being worth in excess of £25M no one knows yet.
Downing was stupid money £12M maybe worth having a punt at but not £20M.
Suarez speaks for himself really, player of the tournament and top scorer at the Copa America says it all.
Carroll......£35M the same as Aguero, £12M more than Suarez, At that money you are buying a player to fit straight in and have an impact like Suarez has and like when Torres came to us. Not to sit on the bench and spend the next 18 months trying to find his feet.

 

[Piece]

Andy Carroll has the potential... to still just be average. I think there was a decimal point error in the contract, £3.5M more like

 

[Tiger]

Adey please tell me you are not suggesting that the £114m is sound spending!!!! You spend that kind of money on players that can do the job now not in three or four years.

 

[MadAdey]

Adey please tell me you are not suggesting that the £114m is sound spending!!!! You spend that kind of money on players that can do the job now not in three or four years.

No not at all. £55M on Downing and Carroll. Man City spent £60M on Nasri and Aguero, that is only £5M more, I know who did the better spending there. The rest was spent on £22M for Suarez no problem with that, £6M for Enrique which was a good buy, £7M for Adam which for a Premier League midfielder is no money at all, £7M on Coates a future investment that can be molded as we already have 3 centre halfs, £16M on Henderson who has been bought with a view to be at his potential next season, that is not much seeing as a proven top attacking midfielder will cost in excess of £25M. So I do think that £55M was wasted but the rest I am fine with. Kenny did try to get players in but the lack of CHampions League football prevented that. We looked in a good position to get Nasri and Mata, but they got lured by Chelsea and Man City.

 

[chris661]

£6M for Enrique which was a good buy,

Really he is average at best IMO

£7M for Adam which for a Premier League midfielder is no money at all

Yeah it would be except he is not a premier league midfielder in a million years.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I agree that inmy opinion Dalglish has not spent wisley. I know Carroll is young but I don't think he has the raw ability of even a Dezko from City who is only in his early 20's. He has the ability to be a good target man and his benefit may come as a provider and not finisher, winning balls in the air for a strike partner to finish. However I don't think the game (Stoke apart) is played that way too much anymore and certainly would be hard to produce in Europe where refs blow for the hint of a push in the box against defenders.

I think there are some great players coming through at Anfield as there always has been. The frustrating thing to me seems to be that you are still at least two pieces missing from the jigsaw and that there really isn't any great depth. I'm not in a position to talk as a Fulham fan but there again the limit of my expectations is to ensure we finish 17th or above but I would like to see Liverpool (and Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal) compete home and abroad regularly and win.

 

[Liverbirdie]

No not at all. £55M on Downing and Carroll. Man City spent £60M on Nasri and Aguero, that is only £5M more, I know who did the better spending there. The rest was spent on £22M for Suarez no problem with that, £6M for Enrique which was a good buy, £7M for Adam which for a Premier League midfielder is no money at all, £7M on Coates a future investment that can be molded as we already have 3 centre halfs, £16M on Henderson who has been bought with a view to be at his potential next season, that is not much seeing as a proven top attacking midfielder will cost in excess of £25M. So I do think that £55M was wasted but the rest I am fine with. Kenny did try to get players in but the lack of CHampions League football prevented that. We looked in a good position to get Nasri and Mata, but they got lured by Chelsea and Man City.

Listen, I'm not going to defend all of the above signings, some have worked, some have patently not (so far).

However, comparing LFC's spending success to man citys doesn't wash.

They have signed 4-5 players for every front line position in the last 3 years, so to just cherry pick the succesful ones and line their value up against the LFC ones which have not worked, is highly selective.

What about how much was wasted on Jo, Adebayor, Robinho, Bellamy, Bridge,Kolarov amonst others.

The thing is if Liverpool sign duds we cant afford another 200 million to ship them out and sign even more expensive replacements.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

No not at all. £55M on Downing and Carroll. Man City spent £60M on Nasri and Aguero, that is only £5M more, I know who did the better spending there. The rest was spent on £22M for Suarez no problem with that, £6M for Enrique which was a good buy, £7M for Adam which for a Premier League midfielder is no money at all, £7M on Coates a future investment that can be molded as we already have 3 centre halfs, £16M on Henderson who has been bought with a view to be at his potential next season, that is not much seeing as a proven top attacking midfielder will cost in excess of £25M. So I do think that £55M was wasted but the rest I am fine with. Kenny did try to get players in but the lack of CHampions League football prevented that. We looked in a good position to get Nasri and Mata, but they got lured by Chelsea and Man City.

Listen, I'm not going to defend all of the above signings, some have worked, some have patently not (so far).

However, comparing LFC's spending success to man citys doesn't wash.

They have signed 4-5 players for every front line position in the last 3 years, so to just cherry pick the succesful ones and line their value up against the LFC ones which have not worked, is highly selective.

What about how much was wasted on Jo, Adebayor, Robinho, Bellamy, Bridge,Kolarov amonst others.

The thing is if Liverpool sign duds we cant afford another 200 million to ship them out and sign even more expensive replacements.

You make a valid point although to be fair Bellamy still isn't really producing the good consistantly for you. Adebayour and Jo I think had issues and Mancini did what he seems good at doing and dumped them off early in the same way he has managed to offload Tevez (potentially)

I don't think anyone would argue Man City are trying to buy the league as Chelsea did. I think however Dalglish has tried to do a similar thing (albeit on a slimmer tranfer budget) but just seemed to have picked players who haven't really turned it on. Its a fickle game and I may be left to look a right mug (not for the first time) when Carroll goes on a Van Persie like blitz and Suarez returns fully rested and scores for fun and Liverpool launch a late top 4 bid.