And, we’re off.......2018/2019

[Orikoru]

Some real idiots in this thread. Spurs fans sing Yid Army in solidarity with the huge Jewish following we have. Basically taking ownership of the word, to disarm those who would use it in a derogatory way. I thought most people knew this but apparently not.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Some real idiots in this thread. Spurs fans sing Yid Army in solidarity with the huge Jewish following we have. Basically taking ownership of the word, to disarm those who would use it in a derogatory way. I thought most people knew this but apparently not.

Sorry, but on this I strongly disagree with you. You don't own a word and by using it you normalise it, you give it the okay to the numpties out there who want to use it in a derogatroy way. You are kidding yourself if you think you are disarming the planks out there. Let it be consigned to history, be unacceptable.

I agree with Tashy's post earlier, it applies to the N word as well. Let these words disappear.

 

[Orikoru]

Sorry, but on this I strongly disagree with you. You don't own a word and by using it you normalise it, you give it the okay to the numpties out there who want to use it in a derogatroy way. You are kidding yourself if you think you are disarming the planks out there. Let it be consigned to history, be unacceptable.

I agree with Tashy's post earlier, it applies to the N word as well. Let these words disappear.

No, by taking ownership of a word you rob that word of all it's power. You want to call our Jewish fans yids, then we're all yids. So the abuser knows his words have done no damage whatsoever, where does he go then? On the contrary, by 'banning' a word you give it more power as weapon to use against someone.

You are not going to stop 30,000 people singing a chant they want to sing, regardless.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

Some real idiots in this thread. Spurs fans sing Yid Army in solidarity with the huge Jewish following we have. Basically taking ownership of the word, to disarm those who would use it in a derogatory way. I thought most people knew this but apparently not.

What about those Spurs 'fans' who used to sing/chant it in the late 70s and early/mid 80s before and after games whilst looking to meet up with like-minded 'fans' of other clubs for a friendly game or 2 of conkers?

 

[Deleted member 1418]

I have a few very good friends who are Jewish and support Arsenal, and I've asked them about the Spurs fans chanting 'Yid Army' and whether that bothers them in any way - they couldn't care less! They're only bothered by the fact that Spurs have the upper hand over them at the moment and the last few seasons in terms of league position. However they console themselves with the fact that at least they've won a trophy over the last few years!!

 

[Orikoru]

What about those Spurs 'fans' who used to sing/chant it in the late 70s and early/mid 80s before and after games whilst looking to meet up with like-minded 'fans' of other clubs for a friendly game or 2 of conkers?

I don't know, we were talking about use of language and context, and now you're trying to bring hooliganism into it? That's before my time anyway.

I have a few very good friends who are Jewish and support Arsenal, and I've asked them about the Spurs fans chanting 'Yid Army' and whether that bothers them in any way - they couldn't care less! They're only bothered by the fact that Spurs have the upper hand over them at the moment and the last few seasons in terms of league position. However they console themselves with the fact that at least they've won a trophy over the last few years!!

That's fair enough.

 

[Tashyboy]

No, by taking ownership of a word you rob that word of all it's power. You want to call our Jewish fans yids, then we're all yids. So the abuser knows his words have done no damage whatsoever, where does he go then? On the contrary, by 'banning' a word you give it more power as weapon to use against someone.

You are not going to stop 30,000 people singing a chant they want to sing, regardless.

In a way I agree yet disagree, let me try to explain. I have a gay mixed race friend who worked at the pit. He was easy prey for lads to call him names. In a way he didn't mind coz he could give it back in bucket loads. However he said he knew who was a rascist gay bashing bigot, not by what they said but by how they said it. At the time I disagreed saying " it shouldn't be said end of". He called most of it Banter.
In Amsterdam there is a pink triangle at the side of one of the canals near the Anne Frank's museum. During the Second World War the Nazis used to put a pink triangle on gay people to help with the "cleansing", similar to the way Jews wore a yellow badge. Gays now wear this pink triangle upside down as a mark of "pride" , what was a negative symbol is now one that is worn with pride. Similar to the way Spuds fans sing " Yid army", it cannot hurt us, we're proud etc etc.So back to the original comment, if certain groups of individuals, be it through colour or religion can say a word, why can't others.
Finally this discussion re " Yid" started though someone saying that the chants yesterday could be clearly heard on the box. Dont know if it is or if it isn't owt to do with it, but yesterday was the 74th anniversary of the Allies liberating Aushwitz. Was that in some fans minds ?

 

[Fade and Die]

Some real idiots in this thread. Spurs fans sing Yid Army in solidarity with the huge Jewish following we have. Basically taking ownership of the word, to disarm those who would use it in a derogatory way. I thought most people knew this but apparently not.

What about the fact that bodies like The World Jewish Congress and Jewish Leadership Council have asked you to stop as it’s derogatory? Nuts to em coz your taking ownership?
You need to accept that it IS a racist slur and you need to stop.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

No, by taking ownership of a word you rob that word of all it's power. You want to call our Jewish fans yids, then we're all yids. So the abuser knows his words have done no damage whatsoever, where does he go then? On the contrary, by 'banning' a word you give it more power as weapon to use against someone.

You are not going to stop 30,000 people singing a chant they want to sing, regardless.

How does that work outside of football though? You have green lighted the use of the word so ignorant people will start insulting Jewish people in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham etc using that word. You don't control its usage outside the ground and it is a word that upsets a significant number of people. Let it die.

 

[Orikoru]

In a way I agree yet disagree, let me try to explain. I have a gay mixed race friend who worked at the pit. He was easy prey for lads to call him names. In a way he didn't mind coz he could give it back in bucket loads. However he said he knew who was a rascist gay bashing bigot, not by what they said but by how they said it. At the time I disagreed saying " it shouldn't be said end of". He called most of it Banter.
In Amsterdam there is a pink triangle at the side of one of the canals near the Anne Frank's museum. During the Second World War the Nazis used to put a pink triangle on gay people to help with the "cleansing", similar to the way Jews wore a yellow badge. Gays now wear this pink triangle upside down as a mark of "pride" , what was a negative symbol is now one that is worn with pride. Similar to the way Spuds fans sing " Yid army", it cannot hurt us, we're proud etc etc.So back to the original comment, if certain groups of individuals, be it through colour or religion can say a word, why can't others.
Finally this discussion re " Yid" started though someone saying that the chants yesterday could be clearly heard on the box. Dont know if it is or if it isn't owt to do with it, but yesterday was the 74th anniversary of the Allies liberating Aushwitz. Was that in some fans minds ?

Of course - context is everything. Words are just words, collections of letters - how you use them is what matters.

What about the fact that bodies like The World Jewish Congress and Jewish Leadership Council have asked you to stop as it’s derogatory? Nuts to em coz your taking ownership?
You need to accept that it IS a racist slur and you need to stop.

I would suggest they don't understand the context.

How does that work outside of football though? You have green lighted the use of the word so ignorant people will start insulting Jewish people in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham etc using that word. You don't control its usage outside the ground and it is a word that upsets a significant number of people. Let it die.

Well good luck, because you won't ever get people to stop using the word. It just isn't possible. So what's the next plan of action?

If you say 'that word is banned' you are showing that it offends you. People won't stop saying it so all you've done is strengthened their resolve that they can hurt people with a simple word. If you take ownership of a word, you're saying 'we refuse to be offended by that word - so do your worst'. I think that has as good a chance as anything of making abusers stop using it. The point of using a slur is to cause offence, so if the victim isn't offended anymore, what reason do you have left for saying it?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

You can as near damn it stop the use of a word if society deems it unnaceptable. How often do you here the N word when walking in the street, sat in a pub or coffee shop. It is not used, it is not acceptable. Use it in most work places and you would be out of the door. Society has done a great job there. The Y word is the same. Use it in general walks of life and people would look horrified. I've never heard it being used outside of Spurs fans singing it or certain opposition fans, London teams, singing it in abuse. You are prolonging its use.

Leave these words to the idiots, let them stand out as being what they are. Ostracise them.

 

[Orikoru]

You can as near damn it stop the use of a word if society deems it unnaceptable. How often do you here the N word when walking in the street, sat in a pub or coffee shop. It is not used, it is not acceptable. Use it in most work places and you would be out of the door. Society has done a great job there. The Y word is the same. Use it in general walks of life and people would look horrified. I've never heard it being used outside of Spurs fans singing it or certain opposition fans, London teams, singing it in abuse. You are prolonging its use.

Leave these words to the idiots, let them stand out as being what they are. Ostracise them.

Not a great example for your argument, since we know the black community took ownership of the word in much the same way. So maybe it works?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Well good luck, because you won't ever get people to stop using the word. It just isn't possible. So what's the next plan of action?

You will stop when the FA and UEFA start applying sanctions to Spurs for the racist chanting.
If a word is racist for anyone to use, it’s racist for everyone to use.
Football is exempt from normal decency.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Not a great example for your argument, since we know the black community took ownership of the word in much the same way. So maybe it works?

Tosh. I have black friends and all of them hate the n word and c word and wouldn’t even dream of using them
Racist words are just that.

 

[Orikoru]

There are endless examples of people taking ownership of words. What about 'queer'? It used to mean strange and unusual, then people started using it as a derogatory word against homosexuals, now many homosexuals describe themselves as queer. Consequently I rarely hear people use that as an insult now, because they don't find it insulting anymore so what's the point?

If I heard someone say "there were a load of yids on the train down here", I would assume they meant Spurs fans, before thinking they were insulting a group of Jewish people. That's how far it's gone the other way. For you to ban the word, all you're doing is bringing it back to the offensive meaning.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Not a great example for your argument, since we know the black community took ownership of the word in much the same way. So maybe it works?

Again disagree. US rappers and comics like to use it, it''s hated by most others. They haven't regained ownership of the word, it is a nasty horrible racist word, much beloved of the KKK in history and today. Always has been, always will be.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Until the minority at Spurs accept that “ yid “ is now deemed to be derogatory in any context by many in the Jewish communities, they’ll carry on singing it.

I think the only way it’ll stop is if the older generation in Spurs’ support start shouting it down,until then it’ll continue.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

I don't know, we were talking about use of language and context, and now you're trying to bring hooliganism into it? That's before my time anyway.

Apologies, should have been a lot clearer in saying that the chanting of 'Yid Army' by Tottenham hooligans in those days was certainly not in solidarity with the large Jewish communities in the vicinity of WHL, but to threaten and intimidate - so in terms of language and context it wasn't chanted in any positive way whatsoever.

But as you said, you weren't around in those days anyway so wouldn't have experienced that - unfortunately I did on a number of occasions, and as a young teenager it wasn't nice. But other clubs supporters visiting Chelsea were just as bad, as were a number of Chelsea fans themselves.

I would also go as far as to say that I hear a lot of songs and chants that I still hear at football today were very much taken over by the hooligan elements of clubs and haven't gone away.

 

[Piece]

Some chants have had their day and get dropped as they aren't relevant in today's society. Yid Army is one that will hopefully die away in a few years, or hopefully sooner.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Apologies, should have been a lot clearer in saying that the chanting of 'Yid Army' by Tottenham hooligans in those days was certainly not in solidarity with the large Jewish communities in the vicinity of WHL, but to threaten and intimidate - so in terms of language and context it wasn't chanted in any positive way whatsoever.

But as you said, you weren't around in those days anyway so wouldn't have experienced that - unfortunately I did on a number of occasions, and as a young teenager it wasn't nice. But other clubs supporters visiting Chelsea were just as bad, as were a number of Chelsea fans themselves.

I would also go as far as to say that I hear a lot of songs and chants that I still hear at football today were very much taken over by the hooligan elements of clubs and haven't gone away.

So, according to David Baddiel's article, he guesses that less than 5% of spurs's match-going support would actually be Jewish, based on averages.

In essence then, has a 95% of Christian/Muslim/Atheist/Agnostic/7th day adventists/presbyterian/mennonite/Buddhist/Sikh/Pentacostal/Jedi alliance taken ownership of a Jewish derogatory term?

I want to see documents......

Forgot the shinto-ists, as well, dont want them on my back.