All things scorecard

[Old Skier]

Thanks for the replies. If playing handicap isn't necessary, should you leave the boxes blank where your net score would normally go? I.e just record your gross score and leave it at that?

Any time I've played in a fourball BB etc the handicap for the day has always been recorded on the card, otherwise it's just chaos. It'd surely be easier to record playing handicap on each card and be done with it?

Individuals are only responsible for putting the gross scores on the card.

 

[azazel]

Individuals are only responsible for putting the gross scores on the card.

Aye but up until last week you always knew your gross and net scores when you signed your card, whereas now some people won't have a clue.

 

[Old Skier]

Aye but up until last week you always knew your gross and net scores when you signed your card, whereas now some people won't have a clue.

If that is the case then committees need to ensure members know what they need to do but from your posts it appears that is not happening. I get our members to but in course and playing handicaps even though course handicap is what must be put on.

 

[Swango1980]

Aye but up until last week you always knew your gross and net scores when you signed your card, whereas now some people won't have a clue.

It is interpretation 3.3b(4)/1 that clarifies that Course Handicap must be correct.

However, I get your point. The Rule itself (under "The Competition" Rule 3) states that the handicap must be correct, and if it is too high and affects the number of strokes the player gets, they get a DQ. Well, for HANDICAP, it is the course handicap that matters. But, for the COMPETITION it is the Playing handicap that matters. So, it makes one wonder why it is not the Playing Handicap that must be correct. Also, most people like to track how they are scoring in the competition and just let the handicap take care of itself behind the scenes. So. previously, when my handicap was 8, but I was playing in an event assuming 75% handicap and so only got 6 shots, on stroke indexes 7 and 8, if I was putting for double bogey, I didn't care. No points anyway. I never thought "well, I can't score in the competition, but I still have a shot on my handicap at least". To be fair, any event that had a reduced handicap was a non-qualifier anyway, so that didn't matter. But, I can't see people changing this mindset very quickly.

So, my instinct (if it wasn't for the interpretation above) is that Playing Handicap should be correct as that is being applied in The Competition. One might argue that Course Handicap is required to get the Playing Handicap. However, you could then just go one step back and say Index is required to get the Course Handicap. Handicap Index would be my 2nd choice, as that doesn't change depending on the course, and the player is less likely to make a mistake in doing the Course Handicap conversion (I know people say it is easy. However, writing on the boards is very small, and I've witnessed about 3 or 4 people already reading the wrong row when trying to convert their Index. One guy looked at the complete wrong section, and converted his Index based on him being a lady playing of red tees, which gave him another 4 shots).

Here is a question? Player has a Course Handicap of 20. They write 21 on the card. Under Playing Handicap, the calculate it incorrectly and write 19 (95% of 21 is 20). However, as luck would have it, the 19 Playing Handicap would have been correct had they put in the correct Course Handicap of 20.

So, is the player disqualified, because the course handicap is too high and it would have given the player too many shots (assume the player scores on SI 2)?
Is the player not disqualified, because they incorrectly calculated the Playing Handicap (which presumably they are not responsible for), and that meant they didn't get too many shots in the competition?

I presume they are disqualified, and the rules are simply focused on Course Handicap. But is would seem harsh as they got the right Playing Handicap AND the Computer is likely going to ensure the correct handicap is applied anyway, unless they manually increase it.

 

[Old Skier]

We have never used labels function on V1 perhaps that could be the answer. Would be interesting to see if it prints CH and PH.

Just ran a test on V1 so even more confusing the labels only show playing HC.

 

[rulie]

The Rules do clearly clarify the responsibilities of the player and the Committee. The player's responsibilities for his or her scorecard are quite simple - gross score, course handicap, signatures.

 

[jim8flog]

It is interpretation 3.3b(4)/1

Here is a question? Player has a Course Handicap of 20. They write 21 on the card. Under Playing Handicap, the calculate it incorrectly and write 19 (95% of 21 is 20). However, as luck would have it, the 19 Playing Handicap would have been correct had they put in the correct Course Handicap of 20.

So, is the player disqualified, because the course handicap is too high and it would have given the player too many shots (assume the player scores on SI 2)?
Is the player not disqualified, because they incorrectly calculated the Playing Handicap (which presumably they are not responsible for), and that meant they didn't get too many shots in the competition?

I presume they are disqualified, and the rules are simply focused on Course Handicap. But is would seem harsh as they got the right Playing Handicap AND the Computer is likely going to ensure the correct handicap is applied anyway, unless they manually increase it.

It is a good question

(4) Scoring in Handicap Competition.

The player is responsible for making sure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. If the player returns a scorecard without the right handicap:
• Handicap on Scorecard Too High or No Handicap Shown. If this affects the number of strokes the player gets, the player is disqualified from the handicap competition. If it does not, there is no penalty.

 

[jim8flog]

We have never used labels function on V1 perhaps that could be the answer. Would be interesting to see if it prints CH and PH.

Just ran a test on V1 so even more confusing the labels only show playing HC.

You could only use labels if they were printed after 12.01 am on the day of the competition though (assuming the software has run it's course by the time you print).

 

[Old Skier]

You could only use labels if they were printed after 12.01 am on the day of the competition though (assuming the software has run it's course by the time you print).

Good point

 

[azazel]

The rules section probably wasn't the best place to post my question as the rule is fairly clear, I suppose it's just the theory behind the rule that I'm questioning.

I have no issues with how the handicap index is calculated or the principle behind a unified (ish) global system but jings, "they're" certainly not making this easy for people. The handicap that affects your result in the competition you're playing in that day would surely be the most sensible thing to insist on being on the card as anything else is just chaos, at least in the short term.

 

[rulefan]

The rules section probably wasn't the best place to post my question as the rule is fairly clear, I suppose it's just the theory behind the rule that I'm questioning.

I have no issues with how the handicap index is calculated or the principle behind a unified (ish) global system but jings, "they're" certainly not making this easy for people. The handicap that affects your result in the competition you're playing in that day would surely be the most sensible thing to insist on being on the card as anything else is just chaos, at least in the short term.

The result of a competition depends on much more than your score. (eg everyone else's scores, DQs). So what is on your card when you hand it in is somewhat irrelevant at that time,
However, the course handicap tells you immediately how you have performed and ultimately will affect you (or more accurately your handicap)

 

[Swango1980]

It is a good question

(4) Scoring in Handicap Competition.

The player is responsible for making sure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. If the player returns a scorecard without the right handicap:
• Handicap on Scorecard Too High or No Handicap Shown. If this affects the number of strokes the player gets, the player is disqualified from the handicap competition. If it does not, there is no penalty.

Indeed, although it is open to interpretation (ironically, it may be less open to interpretation if it wasn't for Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1, that confirms it is the Course Handicap that needs to be correct.

Under the rule, which you quoted, the Course Handicap is wrong, and that would have affected the number of shots the player gets had they worked out Playing Handicap correctly (from the wrong Course handicap). The fact that they incorrectly calculated Playing Handicap is irrelevant, even though they happened to get lucky and end up with a number that should have been correct anyway. After all, had the Course handicap been correct, but they incorrectly assumed Playing Handicap = Course Handicap, the incorrect Playing Handicap would not get them a DQ.

It seems harsh, but I guess that is part of the system. Thinking ahead, I can see all sorts of unhappy golfers slipping up and getting DQ's, moreso than the old system. Perhaps not as much as the scenario mentioned above, but maybe more likely from the following situations:

1. Showing the correct Index, but accidentally reading their Course Handicap of the wrong row on the chart, and putting a value one higher
2. Not realising their last round resulted in a significant Index change, that meant they were in a different course handicap bracket. In fact, they might have only had an Index change of 0.1, but because it was maybe 10.2 to 10.1, not realising that slipping to 10.1 resulted in a lower Course Handicap (players being used to having different shots at the x.5 handicap interval)

Hopefully, if the technology works (which feels like a distant dream right now), many players will simply get the numbers directly from their phone or PSI screen anyway.

 

[rulie]

Sounds as though some Committees are trying to assume player responsibilities? Why not just leave it to the responsible party?

 

[Old Skier]

Sounds as though some Committees are trying to assume player responsibilities? Why not just leave it to the responsible party?

Or committees are trying to assist members to ensure that they do things correctly but in doing that the committee have to get their head around how to explain to members why they have ended up with “3” handicap when they were used to “1“ the majority of the time.

 

[rulie]

Or committees are trying to assist members to ensure that they do things correctly but in doing that the committee have to get their head around how to explain to members why they have ended up with “3” handicap when they were used to “1“ the majority of the time.

And, if the Committees are trying to help the members, they have to "get it right" and make sure the correct handicap is on the card. If the Committee puts the wrong handicap on the card, such as a playing handicap rather than course handicap, they will have to DQ the player if the player does not correct it. Seems best for the Committee to leave it to the player!

 

[Old Skier]

And, if the Committees are trying to help the members, they have to "get it right" and make sure the correct handicap is on the card. If the Committee puts the wrong handicap on the card, such as a playing handicap rather than course handicap, they will have to DQ the player if the player does not correct it. Seems best for the Committee to leave it to the player!

Great answer say nothing and judging by a lot of responses on here let them get it wrong.

 

[azazel]

If the point of the handicap is to give all players the chance to compete on an equal footing, then in an individual strokeplay competition it's the playing handicap that facilitates that. Therefore not putting it on the card is unhelpful at best.

I'd have hoped we're trying to make golf easier for people rather than more complicated and from the golfers I know each and every one one would rather know their score for the competition they're playing in rather than the score that affects their handicap.

 

[rulefan]

If the point of the handicap is to give all players the chance to compete on an equal footing, then in an individual strokeplay competition it's the playing handicap that facilitates that. Therefore not putting it on the card is unhelpful at best.

I'd have hoped we're trying to make golf easier for people rather than more complicated and from the golfers I know each and every one one would rather know their score for the competition they're playing in rather than the score that affects their handicap.

There is nothing to prevent a player putting his playing handicap and index on his card if it is important to him. The course handicap is important to the recipient

 

[jim8flog]

If the point of the handicap is to give all players the chance to compete on an equal footing, then in an individual strokeplay competition it's the playing handicap that facilitates that. Therefore not putting it on the card is unhelpful at best.

I'd have hoped we're trying to make golf easier for people rather than more complicated and from the golfers I know each and every one one would rather know their score for the competition they're playing in rather than the score that affects their handicap.

There is nothing stopping you from putting your playing handicap on the card and there is nothing stopping you from putting the stableford points on the card so you know where you stand in the competition.

Nothing has really changed pre and post WHS. You are required to have your handicap on the card but strokes allowed is for your info if you wish to put it there.

 

[Swango1980]

There is nothing to prevent a player putting his playing handicap and index on his card if it is important to him. The course handicap is important to the recipient

In terms of the Rules of Golf, what was the actual original intention of having the rule in the first place? As far as I am aware, the rules are not interested in the calculation of handicaps. So, my thought was, the rule was there to ensure players received the correct number of shots in a handicap competition. And, the disqualification was a penalty for having too high a handicap on the card, because this would result in the player having a better score in that competition than they were allowed. Perhaps this rule was even more important many years ago, before technology made things much easier, in terms of not only reducing the chance of this mistake happening in the first place, but also allowing committees quicker ways to check handicaps are correct.

A player has a course handicap of 30. They write 31. However, in both cases, 95% comes out as 29, so it doesn't impact the number of shots they get in the competition (but it would have had an impact on their handicap score if the rules were bothered with that). So, I presume no DQ for them, as luckily the Playing Handicap is 29 and so it does not impact their score in the competition. But, if this was the case, clearly it is the Playing Handicap that is important here.

And, an example I gave a little earlier, their Course Handicap is 20, but they write 21. But, they incorrectly work out their Playing Handicap as 19 (based on the wrong course handicap). However, the 19 was actually correct had they used the correct Course Handicap of 20. So, their Playing Handicap is ultimately correct, their score in the competition is correct based on the Playing Handicap. Yet, presumably they still need to be disqualified because the course handicap was wrong, and the player has no responsibility for calculating the Playing Handicap, so cannot be judged wither way in making an error in this calculation. I'd be very uncomfortable disqualifying the player for this, albeit there would be no choice as rules must be followed.

Although, perhaps it is not something that will be noticed straight away, due to the limitations at the moment in submitting scorecards due to Covid. Our club have asked one player from each group to submit the scores for all players on one card, whilst individuals enter their scores on the App. So, it would be harsh to DQ Players B or C if Player A, who handed in the card, got their handicap wrong.