Advice

[D-S]

I know this is a bit of an old chestnut but it has reared its head in the “YouTubers” thread in “The Lounge”.
As usual there are comments there like
‘I can count on one finger the amount of rounds of competitive golf I’ve had where someone doesn’t discuss the club they are thinking of hitting / have just hit.’
‘One rule that you must agree that needs removing is the rule that you get a pen if somebody else offers advise that you didn't even ask for!’
Has anyone ever seen anyone actually penalised for giving or asking for advice? Comments and questions about what club someone has or is going to hit are commonplace in social golf maybe some are a bit more cautious in a competition but I would hazard a guess that this is the sort of rule that would never be picked up with one or more players putting a GP card in which should be played to the Rules of Golf.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I suppose if you are playing with the same group or your lad every week and helping each other it could go on if one is inclined to ignore the rules.

I must say it’s not something we ever do or come across regularly.

I played a few times with a father and son at my place where the dad was telling the kid every shot and club to hit.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

In answer to the question, no, I've never heard of someone being penalised for it.

edit. I've removed a chunk of my reply, in case anyone read it, as it was probably a reply for a question in the lounge, not here.

 

[rulie]

When discussing Rules, it never hurts to review the definitions in the Rule book. Here is the definition of "advice". Note the emphasis on intent:
Any verbal comment or action (such as showing what club was just used to make a stroke) that is intended to influence a player in:

• Choosing a club,
• Making a stroke, or
• Deciding how to play during a hole or round.

But advice does not include public information, such as:

• The location of things on the course such as the hole, the putting green, the fairway, penalty areas, bunkers, or another player’s ball,
• The distance from one point to another,
• Wind direction, or
• The Rules.

 

[jim8flog]

I have seen guys tell others many a time to stop giving advice but nobody ever penalise the players that do it.

 

[Backache]

Has anyone ever seen anyone actually penalised for giving or asking for advice? Comments and questions about what club someone has or is going to hit are commonplace in social golf maybe some are a bit more cautious in a competition but I would hazard a guess that this is the sort of rule that would never be picked up with one or more players putting a GP card in which should be played to the Rules of Golf.

The general play round is interesting because I assume you can give information to others playing the course as the giving of advice in the rule book specifically refers to others in the competition. Presumably you can't though seek or take advice for anyone else other than your caddie.
What happens if you nominate someone else going round with you such as your father as your caddie?

 

[D-S]

The general play round is interesting because I assume you can give information to others playing the course as the giving of advice in the rule book specifically refers to others in the competition. Presumably you can't though seek or take advice for anyone else other than your caddie.
What happens if you nominate someone else going round with you such as your father as your caddie?

I don’t think someone else playing with you can be a ‘caddie’ here is the definition of a caddie who is the only person who can give advice other than a partner (which you can’t have in a GP card as it is singles)

Someone who helps a player during a round, including in these ways:

• Carrying, Transporting or Handling Clubs: A person who carries, transports (such as by cart or trolley) or handles a player’s clubs during play is the player’s caddie even if not named as a caddie by the player, except when done to move the player’s clubs, bag or cart out of the way or as a courtesy (such as getting a club the player left behind).

 

[rulefan]

The general play round is interesting because I assume you can give information to others playing the course as the giving of advice in the rule book specifically refers to others in the competition. Presumably you can't though seek or take advice for anyone else other than your caddie.
What happens if you nominate someone else going round with you such as your father as your caddie?

During a round a player must not:

• Ask anyone for advice, other than the player’s caddie

Bur it doesn't stop you having Uncle Fred as your caddie

 

[Backache]

During a round a player must not:

• Ask anyone for advice, other than the player’s caddie

It doesn't stop you having Uncle Fred as your caddie

But can Uncle Fred be your caddie in a general play round as well as playing a ball casually?

I was also meaning that you cannot be penalised for giving advice in a General play round as there is no one else in the competition.

 

[rulefan]

But can Uncle Fred be your caddie in a general play round as well as playing a ball casually?

I was also meaning that you cannot be penalised for giving advice in a General play round as there is no one else in the competition.

But the WHS requires that all handicap qualifying rounds are played to the Rules of Golf. So that means that in non-handicap general play rounds it is ok but in 'qualifiers' it is not.

 

[rulie]

But the WHS requires that all handicap qualifying rounds are played to the Rules of Golf. So that means that in non-handicap general play rounds it is ok but in 'qualifiers' it is not.

The separation of "non-handicap general play" and "qualifying round" (which in our jurisdiction of WHS doesn't exist) creates all kinds of Rules situations, and I wonder what the benefit(s) of that separation might be? Perhaps someone could explain how that works? What Rules are not used in non-handicap general play and why?

 

[D-S]

The separation of "non-handicap general play" and "qualifying round" (which in our jurisdiction of WHS doesn't exist) creates all kinds of Rules situations, and I wonder what the benefit(s) of that separation might be? Perhaps someone could explain how that works? What Rules are not used in non-handicap general play and why?

Entirely dependent on the group playing.

It might be gimmees the length of the putter grip to speed up play.

Lift clean and place in the General Area to make the game a bit less awful in the winter.

In other jurisdictions it might be mulligans / ‘breakfast balls’ (but I have seen scores entered using them) I assume these are because people think they haven’t warmed up and have rushed on to the tee.

It might be advice as folk enjoy chatting about the game.

Also there is casual dismissal of rules that don’t seem to have hurt anyone, for example in a social 4 ball if someone accidentally tees off the whites which are 4 or 5 yards behind the yellows which they are playing it might be let slide but wouldn’t be in ‘proper’ i.e. competition golf.

Generally it is agreeing to waive a rule of golf (a disqualification offence in of itself), either regularly “we always do that” or case by case.

 

[Neilds]

I will bet that a lot of groups will hear the phrase ‘take your time’ when someone misses an easy putt and go to tap in the next one without properly settling . Is this against the rules?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Betterball strokeplay will be a potential handicap qualifying score where a player has been allowed to receive advice for their shots from a partner and two caddies.
A little bit of an anomaly in the spirit of the rules. Nine or ten really good holes while receiving advice treated the same as 18 holes where slightly different rules on advice applied.

 

[rulefan]

The separation of "non-handicap general play" and "qualifying round" (which in our jurisdiction of WHS doesn't exist) creates all kinds of Rules situations, and I wonder what the benefit(s) of that separation might be? Perhaps someone could explain how that works? What Rules are not used in non-handicap general play and why?

I'm not sure I understand. What jurisdiction are you in?

From both CONGI and USGA manuals
General Play
When an organized competition is not being contested and golfers are playing:
A casual round; or
Competitively, but not in an event organized by a Committee.

Are all General Play rounds played as handicap qualifying rounds or are are all General Play rounds played as non-handicap qualifying rounds?

 

[Neilds]

Betterball strokeplay will be a potential handicap qualifying score where a player has been allowed to receive advice for their shots from a partner and two caddies.
A little bit of an anomaly in the spirit of the rules. Nine or ten really good holes while receiving advice treated the same as 18 holes where slightly different rules on advice applied.

Not just that, but I can’t get my head round the fact that for singles you have to declare beforehand that you are putting a card in, but 4bbb will be decided for you after the round

 

[rulefan]

Not just that, but I can’t get my head round the fact that for singles you have to declare beforehand that you are putting a card in, but 4bbb will be decided for you after the round

Not sure what this has to do with advice

 

[Neilds]

1. 
   

2. Not sure what this has to do with advice

   Nothing to do with advice but was pointing out another anomaly between 4bbb and singles

 

[rulie]

I'm not sure I understand. What jurisdiction are you in?

From both CONGI and USGA manuals
General Play
When an organized competition is not being contested and golfers are playing:
A casual round; or
Competitively, but not in an event organized by a Committee.

Are all General Play rounds played as handicap qualifying rounds or are are all General Play rounds played as non-handicap qualifying rounds?

See below for what it says in our Handicap Manual (Canada).
When I'm playing, there is nearly always competition within the my group (often four-ball match play) and/or between our groups. Imo, that makes every score an acceptable score for handicapping and we are expected to post it. If there is not competition within my group, say when I'm playing with my family, I'm still competing against the course and myself, so that is also an acceptable score for posting. I don't recall any round last year, where I played my own ball, as not being posted (there was one foursomes match play), and that's a general attitude at every club I've belonged to over the past 50 years.

Acceptable Scores
A score is acceptable for handicap purposes if the round has been played:

• In an authorized format of play (see Rule 2.1a) over at least the minimum number of holes required for either a 9-hole or an 18-hole score to be acceptable (see Rule 2.2),
• In the company of at least one other person, who may also act as a marker (subject to satisfying any other requirements of the Rules of Golf),
• By the Rules of Golf (see Rule 2.1b),
• On a golf course with a current Course Rating and Slope Rating, where length and normal playing difficulty is maintained at a consistent level (see Appendix G),
• On a golf course during its active season.

General Play
When an organized competition is not being contested and golfers are playing:

• A casual round; or
• Competitively, but not in an event organized by a Committee.

 

[Orikoru]

I'd be stunned if anyone was ever actually penalised for it - it would have to be a pretty blatant thing where one player was practically caddying for another I think. There's just so many grey areas otherwise. My mate today was waffling on the par 3 about what club to hit - "if that wind gets up again I'll have to hit a 9". It's not for the purpose of giving me advice (as I said in the other topic, he has very different irons and swing speed to me so what club he hits is pretty irrelevant), he's just thinking out loud and chatting away.

I think it's a little silly that you can't ask what club someone's using but looking into the bag to see what one is missing is absolutely fine. On that level I think you might as well remove the rule really.