Advice versus encouragement

[Deerpark]

Hi,
I played is a recent society golf outing the following happened. I was playing very well and on the 18th one of my fellow competitors who was having a very poor day, seemed to be in the water and bunker at every hole, once again hit it to the water from the tee. I said "hit another and swing slow" or words to that effect. Where upon he did so and landed off the green. I immediately realised what I said and stated to my fellow competitors that my comments were encouragement and was not intending to give advice. I was conscious that he wasn't scoring and felt sorry for the chap. Uneasy with my statement I asked my fellow competitors if they had any issue with me declaring my comments as encouragement and not advice. There were no objections. We were the last in and cards were being collected quickly to do up he scores. I felt I would sound like a bit of an idiot asking for a ruling from committee with everyone in the room. As a result of not declaring a penalty I won the competition.
It now is on my mind as I’m leading the player of the year and my score on the day has greatly contributed to that.


Was I incorrect and should I have taken penalty?


Thanks.

 

[Three]

Just look at the definition of "advice".
100% that is advice as you are " making a suggestion that... influences... the method of making a stroke".

Whether you should get penalised in a society do for saying that to a player having a mare is another matter, but it's definitely advice.

 

[Deerpark]

Thanks. I thought as much. I'll have a word with society to see if they want to take action.

 

[duncan mackie]

Reading your post as written if this came to me for a ruling I would ask you a ouple of questions - was your choice of words regarding 'and swing slow' intended to calm an otherwise agitated fellow competitor or as a coaching reference to someone who, in your opinion, was swinging too fast? Was the player likely to have a relevant score with this shot given the competition format ie was it more a case of simply finishing up the round.
You have already answered the other relevant question in that your comment was not designed to be advice when you made it.
Frankly, from your post, I think this is a good example of where you should accept the wisdom (or otherwise) of the other fellow competitors, who were there and able to make a valid judgement on the moment.
The potentially saddest aspect is that you sound as though you will be wary of saying anything to anyone on the course ever again....which is a real shame. The rules aren't there to arbitrarily punish casual comments of this nature.
In contrast, and to hopefully clarify my position, had you said "hit another and I suggest you take one more club and swing slow" I would be posting 'sorry, but that's a 2 shot penalty'.

 

[Three]

Reading your post as written if this came to me for a ruling I would ask you a ouple of questions - was your choice of words regarding 'and swing slow' intended to calm an otherwise agitated fellow competitor or as a coaching reference to someone who, in your opinion, was swinging too fast? Was the player likely to have a relevant score with this shot given the competition format ie was it more a case of simply finishing up the round.
You have already answered the other relevant question in that your comment was not designed to be advice when you made it.
Frankly, from your post, I think this is a good example of where you should accept the wisdom (or otherwise) of the other fellow competitors, who were there and able to make a valid judgement on the moment.
The potentially saddest aspect is that you sound as though you will be wary of saying anything to anyone on the course ever again....which is a real shame. The rules aren't there to arbitrarily punish casual comments of this nature.
In contrast, and to hopefully clarify my position, had you said "hit another and I suggest you take one more club and swing slow" I would be posting 'sorry, but that's a 2 shot penalty'.

Sorry, absolutely disagree.

"Hit another and swing slow " is advice on two counts, firstly advising which shot to play (there are other options) and secondly, advice on how to swing.

With regards to another point you make, again I fundamentally disagree. Golfers should keep their mouths shut with regards to other players' shots. Nothing more annoying than some muppet giving a running commentary on other people's shots, "Go" , "sit" , " bounce" "spin", "bad luck", it's Out of bounds / in the water / rough / bushes etc etc "
Yes, I know, I just flipping hit it there!!!

If people want to spout off then they take the risk of falling foul of the rules, players should keep quiet unless asked.

 

[duncan mackie]

Sorry, absolutely disagree.

"Hit another and swing slow " is advice on two counts, firstly advising which shot to play (there are other options) and secondly, advice on how to swing.

With regards to another point you make, again I fundamentally disagree. Golfers should keep their mouths shut with regards to other players' shots. Nothing more annoying than some muppet giving a running commentary on other people's shots, "Go" , "sit" , " bounce" "spin", "bad luck", it's Out of bounds / in the water / rough / bushes etc etc "
Yes, I know, I just flipping hit it there!!!

If people want to spout off then they take the risk of falling foul of the rules, players should keep quiet unless asked.

You are entitled to disagree, I'm stating how I would rule under the circumstances as outlined - which includes the fact that it is a society outing and not a Q event.

Hit another is hardly advice as to which shot to play - whilst we aren't told where, or in what depth of water, the first ball went it seems that hitting another is the player's only option and has fundamentally the same effect under the rules as "get you kit off and swim out to retrieve that one so you can use it again" - it makes no specific advice as to where to hit it from. You might take an inference that the player meant "play again from here rather than ..." but we are dealing with what he said (which wasn't that).

 

[cliveb]

Somewhat related to this thread...

Say I take a putt and it ends up near the hole. I'll often say to my FCs "mind if I just finish this off?". If it's not a trivial tap-in (ie. conceivably missable), many players at my club will casually remark "take your time" - bascally encouraging me not to rush the shot. Does that count as advice?

 

[Three]

Somewhat related to this thread...

Say I take a putt and it ends up near the hole. I'll often say to my FCs "mind if I just finish this off?". If it's not a trivial tap-in (ie. conceivably missable), many players at my club will casually remark "take your time" - bascally encouraging me not to rush the shot. Does that count as advice?

Yes.

 

[williamalex1]

Sorry, absolutely disagree.

"Hit another and swing slow " is advice on two counts, firstly advising which shot to play (there are other options) and secondly, advice on how to swing.

With regards to another point you make, again I fundamentally disagree. Golfers should keep their mouths shut with regards to other players' shots. Nothing more annoying than some muppet giving a running commentary on other people's shots, "Go" , "sit" , " bounce" "spin", "bad luck", it's Out of bounds / in the water / rough / bushes etc etc "
Yes, I know, I just flipping hit it there!!!

If people want to spout off then they take the risk of falling foul of the rules, players should keep quiet unless asked.

Keep your fingers crossed you're never in a game with me , you'll need ear muffs.:rofl:

 

[Three]

Keep your fingers crossed you're never in a game with me , you'll need ear muffs.:rofl:

Lol. I have quite a few golfing buddies who do it in friendly games, fortunately we can tell each other to stfu.

Comps are different though, I just think people should keep quiet.

Easier said than done though I know.

 

[stokie_93]

Lol. I have quite a few golfing buddies who do it in friendly games, fortunately we can tell each other to stfu.

Comps are different though, I just think people should keep quiet.

Easier said than done though I know.

people don't do it to offend you ya'know?

 

[duncan mackie]

Somewhat related to this thread...

Say I take a putt and it ends up near the hole. I'll often say to my FCs "mind if I just finish this off?". If it's not a trivial tap-in (ie. conceivably missable), many players at my club will casually remark "take your time" - bascally encouraging me not to rush the shot. Does that count as advice?

If they believe there is something in the tap in that you might have missed and requires attention then it would be advice - if they a simply saying don't rush to get out of the way so that I can take my putt then no, it's not advice.

In my experience ( I once went a month asking everyone who used the phrase what they meant by it) reasons given ranged from the latter above to take care with where you put your feet as the greens are soft and there are 2 people to putt. Nobody said that they thought there was a subtle break that the player might have missed in haste or similar (but of course that doesn't mean that some well meaning person wouldn't.)

 

[backwoodsman]

At our place - and I'm sure pretty much everywhere else - "Take your time" is a shorthand phrase for "There is no need to unnecessarily rush because you are playing out of turn. Carry on in your normal manner". Which I am sure is not advice and saves a lot of breath.

 

[cliveb]

At our place - and I'm sure pretty much everywhere else - "Take your time" is a shorthand phrase for "There is no need to unnecessarily rush because you are playing out of turn. Carry on in your normal manner". Which I am sure is not advice and saves a lot of breath.

Although it clearly means that, I'm fairly certain that at my club it also implicitly means "be careful, that's a missable putt" - for the simple reason that nobody ever says it when it's a tap-in. (Mind you, when it's a tap-in, nobody ever asks permission to do so).

It's almost as if saying "take your time" is a reflex courtesy response to being asked if it's ok to putt out of turn - in which case I suppose you could argue that it basically means nothing.

 

[duncan mackie]

Although it clearly means that, I'm fairly certain that at my club it also implicitly means "be careful, that's a missable putt" - for the simple reason that nobody ever says it when it's a tap-in. (Mind you, when it's a tap-in, nobody ever asks permission to do so).

It's almost as if saying "take your time" is a reflex courtesy response to being asked if it's ok to putt out of turn - in which case I suppose you could argue that it basically means nothing.

Yes to the last paragraph; you have put an interpretation on the difference between tap ins and longer putts, which may be valid, but it's also the case that there is less importance to stance the nearer the ball is to the hole and you can expect a player tapping in to give quick and easy priority to where he places his feet relative to those who still have to putt.
The more players still having to putt and the longer the putt being made to tidy up, the more like a twister show the players stance can become - such a visualisation will normally drive the comment 'take your time' in the context of the care hoped for (but unrelated to the actual putt to be made!)

 

[Three]

Rubbish guys.

The one and only single reason people say "take your time" as an instinctive response to someone who says they will tap in, is as a warning not to hurredly miss the putt.

That, by the definitions, is advice on the playing of the next stroke. Probably not really a big deal, but it is officially advice and to dress it up any other way is a smokescreen.

 

[chrisd]

I really think if "take your time" or " are you going to play a provisional" is cause for a penalty then the rules really do need a look at!

 

[bladeplayer]

If I said take your time as I often do & got called for it , The best thing to happen next is I walk in .. if not the paramedics would be returning my putter

 

[Colin L]

Rubbish guys.

The one and only single reason people say "take your time" as an instinctive response to someone who says they will tap in, is as a warning not to hurredly miss the putt.

That, by the definitions, is advice on the playing of the next stroke. Probably not really a big deal, but it is officially advice and to dress it up any other way is a smokescreen.

The only way it could "officially" be considered advice would be if the R&A/USGA said so. Have they?

 

[backwoodsman]

It's almost as if saying "take your time" is a reflex courtesy response to being asked if it's ok to putt out of turn - in which case I suppose you could argue that it basically means nothing.

I agree - except l might flip it on its head and say "it basically means anything" and as we have already displayed in the thread, numerous interpretations can be made of the words used. Anything which can have multiple interpretations can't in reality be construed as advice.

And in any case, if we go back to the generally principle of taking rules (including definitions) literally, what do those three words actually mean when strung together in that manner? What is your time? Is there any clarification of how much time to take in there? The player concerned may play fast or slow, lightning speed or glacial. If broken down literally it can only be taken as an exhortation to use an amount of time of the player's own choosing. And if there is an open choice for the player to make, then it can't be advice.

Rubbish? I think not.