A question about winter tees and tee markers

[LizAig]

The Winter Golf Checklist we were sent by England Golf stated “Appendix G of the WHS Rules of Handicapping clarifies that the front of the teeing area should not be placed more than +/- 10 yards from the fixed measurement point on each tee. In addition, the overall length of the course is not to be +/- 100 yards from its measured length (from the fixed marker). Anything outside of these parameters would invalidate any scores for handicap purposes”

There are a lot of discussions going on about this wording!!

Current understanding is that the measurement difference is from the centre of the green back to the marker post and that the front of the winter tee should not be +/- 10 yards different when measure back from the green. One of our winter tees is way off to the left but measured back from the green the difference is just 3 yards.

alternative view is that it isn’t about the length of the hole but is just the measurement difference from the tee marker to the front of the winter tee. So where the tee is off to the left, if you measured from the actual tee marker to the front of that winter tee the difference is over 20 yards!?!

My brain is boggled from trying to make sure we are understanding correctly! Can anyone offer guidance

 

[Alan Clifford]

I always thought this stuff refered to length but now you've mentioned sideways ....

 

[rulefan]

It's simply about the difference in the distance from tee to green.
Appendix G
f. Modification of Courses
(i) Temporary Changes
and the associated table cover it.

 

[LizAig]

T

It's simply about the difference in the distance from tee to green.
Appendix G
f. Modification of Courses
(i) Temporary Changes
and the associated table cover it.

thanks - that’s what I had thought but someone was adamant we had it wrong and I started to doubt myself!!

 

[Default Golfer]

The use of "should not" is unhelpful in my opinion as has been discussed before in this forum. We keep our overall course length within 100 yards of its measured length but in the Winter some holes can be up 30 yards longer or 50 yards shorter as tees are rested or renovated.

Advice I've had from EG states that this is fine as a temporary measure - the 100 yards rule is sacrosanct it seems - but I'm really uncomfortable that we are allowing acceptable scores when we really shouldn't be or is the Winter period not considered temporary?

Interestingly, the guidance from EG changed this year which weakens the +/- 10 yards statement.

2021 (my italics)
Appendix G of the WHS Rules of Handicapping clarifies that the front of the teeing area should not be placed more than +/- 10 yards from the fixed measurement point on each tee. In addition, the overall length of the course is not to be +/- 100 yards from its measured length (from the fixed marker). Anything outside of these parameters would invalidate any scores for handicap purposes.

2022 (EG's emboldening)
Appendix G of the WHS Rules of Handicapping clarifies that the front of the teeing area should not be placed more than +/- 10 yards from the fixed measurement point on each tee. Overall length of the course is not to be +/- 100 yards from its measured length (from the fixed marker).

Taking an extreme example: say a 120 yard par 3 has its tee moved up by 95 yards so it becomes a 25 yard pitch or chip to the green and this is the only hole that isn't set to its measured length. So, the overall course length is within 100 yards. It can't be right that scores are acceptable for handicap - or can it?

Am I the only one struggling to get my head around this or am I missing something blindingly obvious?

Apologies for the number of questions...

 

[Default Golfer]

The use of "should not" is unhelpful in my opinion as has been discussed before in this forum. We keep our overall course length within 100 yards of its measured length but in the Winter some holes can be up 30 yards longer or 50 yards shorter as tees are rested or renovated.

Advice I've had from EG states that this is fine as a temporary measure - the 100 yards rule is sacrosanct it seems - but I'm really uncomfortable that we are allowing acceptable scores when we really shouldn't be or is the Winter period not considered temporary?

Interestingly, the guidance from EG changed this year which weakens the +/- 10 yards statement.

2021 (my italics)
Appendix G of the WHS Rules of Handicapping clarifies that the front of the teeing area should not be placed more than +/- 10 yards from the fixed measurement point on each tee. In addition, the overall length of the course is not to be +/- 100 yards from its measured length (from the fixed marker). Anything outside of these parameters would invalidate any scores for handicap purposes.

2022 (EG's emboldening)
Appendix G of the WHS Rules of Handicapping clarifies that the front of the teeing area should not be placed more than +/- 10 yards from the fixed measurement point on each tee. Overall length of the course is not to be +/- 100 yards from its measured length (from the fixed marker).

Taking an extreme example: say a 120 yard par 3 has its tee moved up by 95 yards so it becomes a 25 yard pitch or chip to the green and this is the only hole that isn't set to its measured length. So, the overall course length is within 100 yards. It can't be right that scores are acceptable for handicap - or can it?

Am I the only one struggling to get my head around this or am I missing something blindingly obvious?

Apologies for the number of questions...

Previous discussion at https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/winter-course-length-and-temp-greens.110335/page-1

 

[rulefan]

"should not" is the key. EG is expecting that club committees would use their discretion and are sensible people.

 

[D-S]

"should not" is the key. EG is expecting that club committees would use their discretion and are sensible people.

Interestingly at the EG WHS County Workshop, one of the Regional Advisors said that rules are rules and a tee was more than 10 yards from the permanent markers the competition should not be ‘qualifying’. There was some dissension from the floor but the speaker was adamant but I believe that the general consensus agreed with Rulefan’s point.

 

[rulefan]

Interestingly at the EG WHS County Workshop, one of the Regional Advisors said that rules are rules and a tee was more than 10 yards from the permanent markers the competition should not be ‘qualifying’. There was some dissension from the floor but the speaker was adamant but I believe that the general consensus agreed with Rulefan’s point.

Was this in 2021 or perhaps had the RA not seen the update?

 

[D-S]

Was this in 2021 or perhaps had the RA not seen the update?

No, it was earlier this month.
Edit - early November, I forgot it was 1st December today.

 

[rulefan]

No, it was earlier this month.
Edit - early November, I forgot it was 1st December today.

Hmm

 

[D-S]

Hmm

Sort of sums up the reaction from many of the audience.

 

[LizAig]

We’ve now been told (by EG) that our winter tees/course is not qualifying as some of tees more then -/+10! Over the course it’s less than 100 yd difference but we’ve been told out winter tees have to be measured and given their own slope etc. I understand it was quite a heated discussion with England Golf and we‘ve since found out thete are other clubs also being told they have to turn off the option to put in qualifying scores off winter tees.

 

[IanM]

We've had our layout using winter tees assessed to get a "winter course rating."

 

[nickjdavis]

We are not holding qualifiers over the winter (from next Monday until 1st March) for the first time in over 20 years so the greenkeeping staff can do renovation work on the tees.

 

[LizAig]

We've had our layout using winter tees assessed to get a "winter course rating."

Unfortunately the person in charge of this didn’t realise they had to be measured!! ?

 

[Jason.H]

We've had our layout using winter tees assessed to get a "winter course rating."

Is there a cost to the club for this assessment? Our club/committee decided to go non qualifying this year even though the course is exactly the same. What was mentioned was complaints last year that some people were using fairway mats where they shouldn’t so gaining an advantage.

 

[ntommo]

Is there a cost to the club for this assessment? Our club/committee decided to go non qualifying this year even though the course is exactly the same. What was mentioned was complaints last year that some people were using fairway mats where they shouldn’t so gaining an advantage.

Just send them your new course yardages and they will adjust your ratings, thats all they done with our winter course. No one came out. Winter mat can still be used for qualifying scores but only off fairways /closely mown areas. Unfortunately people using mats from rough and other wrong places happens everywhere and its up to the committees / playing partners to inform them they are in the wrong and report if needed

 

[Jason.H]

Just send them your new course yardages and they will adjust your ratings, thats all they done with our winter course. No one came out. Winter mat can still be used for qualifying scores but only off fairways /closely mown areas. Unfortunately people using mats from rough and other wrong places happens everywhere and its up to the committees / playing partners to inform them they are in the wrong and report if needed

True I’d rather reiterate the correct rules and be qualifying through the winter.

 

[cliveb]

Interestingly at the EG WHS County Workshop, one of the Regional Advisors said that rules are rules and a tee was more than 10 yards from the permanent markers the competition should not be ‘qualifying’.

This alarms me. On my home course, the white tee markers on one hole are almost always more than 10 yards ahead of the stones (which are on a separate tee box further back). The only time I've seen the tee markers back by the stones is during the club championship. I've never measured it, but would estimate the markers are usually about 15-20 yards ahead of the stones. But we run qualifying comps all year round. I guess the comp committee need to review this?