A qucik rules question/confirmation

[heronsghyll]

I was playing at the weekend in Scotland and my opponent hit a fairway wood approach shot (that he topped) which embeded itself in the grass face of a 6ft high bunker face. You know the type, a typical Links fairway bunker very deep and an almost sheer face. His ball was not in the sand but in the grass face above the sand.

He obviously needed to take a drop as the bunker face was vertical so no stance was possible. After discussion I decreed he could drop for a penalty as far back as he wanted in line with the green.

I decided this because he was not in the bunker, so was not in my opinion in the hazzard.

Question - was this correct?

THANKS FOR ANY REPLIES.

 

[Robobum]

Unfortunately, regardless of whether he could take a stance to it the ball should have been dropped as close as possible to the place where the ball was embedded. From your description he would probably ended up placing it after a couple of drops.

He could have course declared it unplayable and took relief in the same manner as you allowed him, but under the penalty of one shot.

 

[viscount17]

This from Definitions,

A 'bunker' is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker. A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker.

The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards. A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.

 

[Faldo_Fan]

I agree with Robobum, you would drop it 3 times obviously it would keep falling back into the bunker so you can then place it as close as possible to where it landed on the bank.
Am i correct in assuming there is no penalty as the ball had plugged in the grass bank and is in fact a free drop?

 

[JezzE]

Herons,
This would be my understanding of the situation.
1) Since, as Viscount says, the grass-covered face is not part of the bunker, the ball was not in the bunker.
2) This actually means that the bunker is a bit of a red herring as the scenario is then merely an embedded ball 'through the green'
3) This would then mean that unless the bunker face were deemed a closely mown area, or there was a Local Rule in place permitting free relief from embedded balls away from closely mown areas, what you have is simply an 'unplayable ball' scenario for which there are three relief options under penalty (two club-lengths not near the hole; back as far as you want on a line; or replay from where the previous stroke was played).

So you were correct, although he could also have chosen one of the other two options if preferable

 

[heronsghyll]

Thanks Jezz, incidentally it was the Dirlton at Archerfield and was Guy who was in the position!

We discussed and I surmmised the grass above the sand in the bunker created an 'unplayable ball' so, the best option was under a penalty to go back as far as he wanted on a line with the green.

Glad we were correct! Cheers

 

[Faldo_Fan]

Herons,
This would be my understanding of the situation.
1) Since, as Viscount says, the grass-covered face is not part of the bunker, the ball was not in the bunker.
2) This actually means that the bunker is a bit of a red herring as the scenario is then merely an embedded ball 'through the green'
3) This would then mean that unless the bunker face were deemed a closely mown area, or there was a Local Rule in place permitting free relief from embedded balls away from closely mown areas, what you have is simply an 'unplayable ball' scenario for which there are three relief options under penalty (two club-lengths not near the hole; back as far as you want on a line; or replay from where the previous stroke was played).

So you were correct, although he could also have chosen one of the other two options if preferable

Ahh i think i see my school boy error here!!!
As the bunker bank isn't close mown it's deemed in the rough, hence no free drop. If it was close mown then deemed on the fairway (through the green) and entitled to a free drop?

 

[Robobum]

Ahh i think i see my school boy error here!!!
As the bunker bank isn't close mown it's deemed in the rough, hence no free drop. If it was close mown then deemed on the fairway (through the green) and entitled to a free drop?

To be fair it was guesswork as it wasn't mentioned in the OP.

 

[jammydodger]

I agree with Robobum, you would drop it 3 times obviously it would keep falling back into the bunker so you can then place it as close as possible to where it landed on the bank.
Am i correct in assuming there is no penalty as the ball had plugged in the grass bank and is in fact a free drop?

You actually only get to drop twice not 3 times. The second drop indicates where you have to place the ball if it rolls outside the drop limit

 

[SammmeBee]

Herons,
This would be my understanding of the situation.
1) Since, as Viscount says, the grass-covered face is not part of the bunker, the ball was not in the bunker.
2) This actually means that the bunker is a bit of a red herring as the scenario is then merely an embedded ball 'through the green'
3) This would then mean that unless the bunker face were deemed a closely mown area, or there was a Local Rule in place permitting free relief from embedded balls away from closely mown areas, what you have is simply an 'unplayable ball' scenario for which there are three relief options under penalty (two club-lengths not near the hole; back as far as you want on a line; or replay from where the previous stroke was played).

So you were correct, although he could also have chosen one of the other two options if preferable

Ahh i think i see my school boy error here!!!
As the bunker bank isn't close mown it's deemed in the rough, hence no free drop. If it was close mown then deemed on the fairway (through the green) and entitled to a free drop?

Yes if it was deemed 'closely mown' you would get a free drop, so you would drop it once and it would end up in the bunker, drop it again and it would end up in the bunker then you would get the option to place it, which in this case would be at the top of the stacked turf on the top of the bunker face.....

 

[bobmac]

"Throuugh the green"
Definition
"all areas of the course except teeing grounds, greens and hazards.
Includes fairways AND rough

 

[SammmeBee]

"Throuugh the green"
Definition
"all areas of the course except teeing grounds, greens and hazards.
Includes fairways AND rough

Has to be closely mown to get relief from embedded ball.....25-2....

 

[bobmac]

"Throuugh the green"
Definition
"all areas of the course except teeing grounds, greens and hazards.
Includes fairways AND rough

Has to be closely mown to get relief from embedded ball.....25-2....

I know, but there seemed to be confusion about what was classed as "through the green"

 

[3offTheTee]

You actually only get to drop twice not 3 times. The second drop indicates where you have to place the ball if it rolls outside the drop limit

The ball MUST be placed as near as possible where it FIRST struck a part of the course. Page 88 next to the last paragraph

 

[3offTheTee]

You actually only get to drop twice not 3 times. The second drop indicates where you have to place the ball if it rolls outside the drop limit

The paragraph above was supposed to be 'quoted'. sorry

 

[roccokj]

I don't know where the multiple drops are coming from! It is treated as an unplayable ball so two clublengths away from the point where it was embedded

 

[Pants]

Unplayable ball.

2 clubs lengths not nearer the hole.
Back on the line as far as you want.
Replay from spot of original shot.

All under 1 shot penalty.

Multiple choice.

Simples.

 

[Robobum]

I don't know where the multiple drops are coming from! It is treated as an unplayable ball so two clublengths away from the point where it was embedded

The OP never distinguished whether the face was fairway or not. If it was fairway (or closely mown to fairway height) then you would have been entitled to free relief. Drop as close to that point as possible.

The steep face suggested it would roll back into the bunker and more than 2 clubs away. Hence the drop twice and then place on the point where the ball hit the ground on the 2nd drop.

As it transpired it was an unplayable and, as per other posts, relief is one of 3 ways under penalty of 1 shot.

 

[viscount17]

If it was fairway (or closely mown to fairway height) then you would have been entitled to free relief. Drop as close to that point as possible.

surely only under winter rules, and then it's place within 6 in.

can you get free relief for a plugged ball at any other time?

 

[SammmeBee]

If it was fairway (or closely mown to fairway height) then you would have been entitled to free relief. Drop as close to that point as possible.

surely only under winter rules, and then it's place within 6 in.

can you get free relief for a plugged ball at any other time?

Yes under 25-2 at any time on a closely mown area or a Local Rule can be introduced to allow it through the green - Pros play this Local Rule all the time, so whenever it is plugged they get relief.....but we have to play it under normal circumstances if it is plugged....