A Match and it got Dark

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And so my match today. Having got all square on the 18th we went up the 1st as it got dark. We halved the hole and stood by the 2nd tee peering up the fairway to see if we could see it. Well we could….just. My opponent suggested we stop as it was too dark. I wanted to play on…my logic being that as I was giving him a shot on the hole…a par 4 playing a lot longer than it’s 450yds…I’d take my chances given the darkness. I was 99% certain that if we stopped we’d come back and start on the 2nd giving a shot on a par 4 I was unlikely to reach in two. All my opponent would have to do would be to get a 5 and I’d be in trouble. If I lost the hole in the dark today, and so the match, then so be it.

So two questions.

1) Was I right thinking that if I wanted to continue then it was my right to insist…or could my opponent have said No, he wasn’t playing it in the dark - he was walking in and would seek guidance on what to do about stopping play due to the dark.

2) Was I right in thinking we’d have to pick up where we’d left off. Or could we agree to decide either do that or to replay the full round. If a replay was an option who decides if we disagree on our course of action.

In the event we played the hole and I got a half against the shot. But it was almost pitch dark as we finished off. We had to walk in. We’ve booked a tee time for a replay if that is what we decide to do (or if that is what is decided for us)

 

[Imurg]

Nothing's simple with you is it..?

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Toss a coin
Draw straws
Arm wrestle ……..
Etc

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Blimey it’s almost as if thinking for one’s self is not allowed

It’s dark - you can’t play golf in the dark

So you stop the game , speak to your comp secretary so that he can clarity the comps rules in place at your club

Or just toss a coin ?‍

 

[Steven Rules]

Edit: I posted this before I saw that you had appended your final para as an edit of your own.

1. It sounds to me like your opponent would be justified in wanting to suspend play. I assume there was no member of the Committee handy so in the event of a disagreement you would need to have it resolved by a Committee member - by which time it would no doubt definitely be too dark.

2. Pick up from where you left off.

This situation is covered in Rule 5.7. I have posted a few extracts here but feel free to look at the Rule in full for yourself.


5.7a
When Players May or Must Stop Play
During a round, a player must not stop play except in these cases:

.......

Stopping Play by Agreement in Match Play. Players in a match may agree to stop play for any reason, except if doing so delays the competition. If they agree to stop play and then one player wants to resume play, the agreement has ended and the other player must resume play.

......

If a player stops play for any reason not allowed under this Rule or fails to report to the Committee when required to do so, the player is disqualified.

5.7b
What Players Must Do When Committee Suspends Play
There are two types of Committee suspensions of play, each with different requirements for when players must stop play.

.....

(2) Normal Suspension (Such as for Darkness or Unplayable Course). If the Committee suspends play for normal reasons, what happens next depends on where each playing group is:

Between Two Holes. If all players in the group are between two holes, they must stop play and must not make a stroke to begin another hole until the Committee resumes play.


.........


If the players do not agree on what to do:
Match Play. If the opponent stops play, the player must also stop play and both players must not play again until the Committee resumes play. If the player does not stop play, the player gets the general penalty (loss of hole).

Penalty for Breach of Rule 5.7b: Disqualification.

Exception – No Penalty If Committee Decides That Failure to Stop Was Justified: There is no breach of this Rule and no penalty if the Committee decides that circumstances justified the player’s failure to stop play when required to do so.

5.7c
What Players Must Do When Play Resumes
(1) Where to Resume Play. A player must resume play from where they stopped play on a hole or, if between two holes, at the next teeing area, even if play is resumed on a later day.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Toss a coin
Draw straws
Arm wrestle ……..
Etc

Does it list these options in a rule…? ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

1. It sounds to me like your opponent would be justified in wanting to suspend play. I assume there was no member of the Committee handy so in the event of a disagreement you would need to have it resolved by a Committee member - by which time it would no doubt definitely be too dark.

2. Pick up from where you left off.

This situation is covered in Rule 5.7. I have posted a few extracts here but feel free to look at the Rule in full for yourself.


5.7a
When Players May or Must Stop Play
During a round, a player must not stop play except in these cases:

.......

Stopping Play by Agreement in Match Play. Players in a match may agree to stop play for any reason, except if doing so delays the competition. If they agree to stop play and then one player wants to resume play, the agreement has ended and the other player must resume play.

......

If a player stops play for any reason not allowed under this Rule or fails to report to the Committee when required to do so, the player is disqualified.

5.7b
What Players Must Do When Committee Suspends Play
There are two types of Committee suspensions of play, each with different requirements for when players must stop play.

.....

(2) Normal Suspension (Such as for Darkness or Unplayable Course). If the Committee suspends play for normal reasons, what happens next depends on where each playing group is:

Between Two Holes. If all players in the group are between two holes, they must stop play and must not make a stroke to begin another hole until the Committee resumes play.


.........


If the players do not agree on what to do:
Match Play. If the opponent stops play, the player must also stop play and both players must not play again until the Committee resumes play. If the player does not stop play, the player gets the general penalty (loss of hole).

Penalty for Breach of Rule 5.7b: Disqualification.

Exception – No Penalty If Committee Decides That Failure to Stop Was Justified: There is no breach of this Rule and no penalty if the Committee decides that circumstances justified the player’s failure to stop play when required to do so.

5.7c
What Players Must Do When Play Resumes
(1) Where to Resume Play. A player must resume play from where they stopped play on a hole or, if between two holes, at the next teeing area, even if play is resumed on a later day.

Many thanks for this.

So I was wrong thinking I could insist we continued even though I felt that the hole was still…just…playable. I will apologise to him.

But I was right in thinking we’d have to pick up from where we left off. So we must start on the 3rd. As it happens back in the clubhouse more than one ‘wise-head’ told us we should just replay the match. Sounds like that is not what we should do.

Also…when debating about starting on 3rd my opponent wondered whether or not we could play the 1st and 2nd as well…not counting for the match. I said that I thought we could not - though on reflection as it’s matchplay maybe there is no rule stopping us playing the two holes and ‘warming up’ as it were.

 

[Steven Rules]

as it’s matchplay maybe there is no rule stopping us playing the two holes and ‘warming up’ as it were.

That is correct. In effect, you are practising on the course before your round, which is permitted in match play. (Rule 5.2a)

Edit....unless practice on the course before a match is prohibited via a local rule or the Terms of the Competition.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Why would you start match if there was a chance you would run out of daylight at this time of year?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Blimey it’s almost as if thinking for one’s self is not allowed

It’s dark - you can’t play golf in the dark

So you stop the game , speak to your comp secretary so that he can clarity the comps rules in place at your club

Or just toss a coin ?‍

Wasn’t impossibly dark as we managed to play the hole. And I’m not going to toss a coin to determine the outcome of a match unless all other avenues have been exhausted, especially as I am the current holder of the trophy.

And as noted…my questions were specifically to do with whether I was right or wrong with my thinking as we stood by the 2nd tee. I was pretty certain of what was required were we to walk off.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Why would you start match if there was a chance you would run out of daylight at this time of year?

We were rather limited in availability of tee times. We gave ourselves 4hrs to complete by 4:30pm. Plenty adequate for a two ball match we thought. Unfortunately we were 15mins late starting as the group in front were late teeing off, then just as they were heading off a two ball match came off 18 all square so they went ahead of us as well. And then it was sloooo…found ourselves behind a slow 2 ball who were incapable of catching the four ball ahead etc etc. and just as we were about to ask to play through they speeded up.

 

[salfordlad]

Edit: I posted this before I saw that you had appended your final para as an edit of your own.

1. It sounds to me like your opponent would be justified in wanting to suspend play. I assume there was no member of the Committee handy so in the event of a disagreement you would need to have it resolved by a Committee member - by which time it would no doubt definitely be too dark.

I think it is clear that, broadly, 5.7a favours the player that wants to continue. The only named conditions that permit stopping play are: a) Committee suspension b) by agreement in match play or c) lightning. It seems a little incongruous, but darkness is not named as a reason that entitles a player to stop play. So if player A wants to proceed into reducing light but B wishes not to, I'm not seeing anything that gets B out of playing. B can seek a ruling if there is a referee/Committee person available but in their absence stopping play is not permitted. At some point in this darkening process, if A is still saying I want to play on and light is extremely poor, B may need to mark their ball (if during a hole), say I'm seeking a ruling and walk off. Taking careful note of the time and taking a photo would also be a sensible way to make their case.

 

[Colin L]

Indeed. Given that one player can insist on the game re-starting after an agreement to stop, it seems obvious that if one player does not agree to stop in the first place the game must go on.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Indeed. Given that one player can insist on the game re-starting after an agreement to stop, it seems obvious that if one player does not agree to stop in the first place the game must go on.

Ah…I was wondering about that also. I know my opponent wanted to stop after the first extra hole…I wanted to go on. I was not sure which way agreement was required I.e. whether we both had to agree to go on, if we didn’t we stopped; or if we both had to agree to stop, if we didn’t we kept going. You have indicated the latter is the case and so I was OK wanting him to continue.

Speaking with my Golf Manager earlier he was most impressed with my knowledge of the rules when I quoted Rule 5.7 covering matchplay ? And yes he absolutely agreed with me that under the rules the match must restart on the 3rd.

For @salfordlad … as we teed off on the 2nd we agreed that in the event we halved the hole we’d pause our match at that point.

And just for @nickjdavis …After coming back from four down to AS after 16, and then losing 17 against the shot..going 1 down, I won 18 to get back to AS. We halved the first (though damn-it I three-putted from 20ft), and then I got a half on the 2nd against a shot.

 

[Steven Rules]

The only named conditions that permit stopping play are: a) Committee suspension b) by agreement in match play or c) lightning. It seems a little incongruous, but darkness is not named as a reason that entitles a player to stop play.

Hmmm. Incogruous? I'd say bordering on perverse. You are right....of course. I missed that one.

It seems to me that this is another one of those situations where (a) the Rules as written don't align with common sense and fairness [think the previous discussion on flying sand from a player’s stroke moving an opponent's ball in match play], and (b) the Rules assume that the Committee is always available to oversee and montior all aspects of play and conditions while there are players out on the course [think players who arrange their own groups and tee times and then swap groups or start late].

Happy New Year to you.

 

[nyckuk]

Many thanks for this.

So I was wrong thinking I could insist we continued even though I felt that the hole was still…just…playable. I will apologise to him.

But I was right in thinking we’d have to pick up from where we left off. So we must start on the 3rd. As it happens back in the clubhouse more than one ‘wise-head’ told us we should just replay the match. Sounds like that is not what we should do.

Also…when debating about starting on 3rd my opponent wondered whether or not we could play the 1st and 2nd as well…not counting for the match. I said that I thought we could not - though on reflection as it’s matchplay maybe there is no rule stopping us playing the two holes and ‘warming up’ as it were.

We were in this Situation in a 4BBB match about a month ago .We finished 18 and i wanted to stop but the other 3 wanted to try 1 more . We tee'd off and it was lucky dip if you managed to find your ball as you lost the flight after 30-40 yards , we halved the hole so had to come back.
Rather than going direct to the 2nd hole on day 2 we played the 1st to warm up , we were both down for par and they both topped/shanked it for 7 or 8 each . 2nd hole one goes in the bunker the other thins it to 5ft and sinks the putt and we are out . I was in a right mood all weekend .
What made it worse my partner the previous day on the 18th was just off the green but only 15ft from the hole , 2 putts to win and managed to 3 putt . The return was a lot of effort for 10 minutes of golf.

Good luck with the return

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

We were in this Situation in a 4BBB match about a month ago .We finished 18 and i wanted to stop but the other 3 wanted to try 1 more . We tee'd off and it was lucky dip if you managed to find your ball as you lost the flight after 30-40 yards , we halved the hole so had to come back.
Rather than going direct to the 2nd hole on day 2 we played the 1st to warm up , we were both down for par and they both topped/shanked it for 7 or 8 each . 2nd hole one goes in the bunker the other thins it to 5ft and sinks the putt and we are out . I was in a right mood all weekend .
What made it worse my partner the previous day on the 18th was just off the green but only 15ft from the hole , 2 putts to win and managed to 3 putt . The return was a lot of effort for 10 minutes of golf.

Good luck with the return

As it happens my opponent was unable to commit to any time to complete the match and so he conceded.

 

[salfordlad]

As it happens my opponent was unable to commit to any time to complete the match and so he conceded.

And I suspect that is one of the reasons the rule is oriented the way it is - it favours continuance unless both want out or conditions get thoroughly unplayable.