A cople of questions on Acceptable Scores.

[PJ87]

I was referring to this from one of the OP’s posts - “This means that I have had "start a round" and then copy scores from the scorecard to the app, and then wait 2 hours for it to be submitted and subsequently attested by my marker.”

Same issue though. If he started the round later (not getting into the ins and outs of if that's correct or not) he still wouldn't have to wait, just fill it in 2 hours later or have it filled in and then submit 2 hours later.

 

[IanM]

As it's a new club, I wonder if it has a committee yet??

I wonder why the system wasn't built to enforce 2 hours for 9 hole cards and 4 for 18?

 

[woofers]

Every club and committee has different rules and methods of acceptable pre registration. Of course this all starts with member education.
Many clubs cross refer score intent download time with tee sheet information. Dependent on pre registration rules/method some clubs cross refer pro shop logs or sign in books and tee times.
Obviously these just need to be random checks.
If someone is found to contravene the rules set down by the committee such as downloading a score card on the app hours after the tee time plainly ‘pre- registering after the round’ then personalised member re education kicks in, normally a friendly reminder to begin with. Clubs soon see repeat offenders and patterns emerge and take action as necessary.
As with most things to do with handicapping the vigilance, knowledge, diligence and time spent varies enormously from club to club.

With respect, you haven’t answered any of my questions.
Your reply refers to things clubs and committees could do, and comes across as coming from someone who knows and makes the rules and procedures but doesn’t have the day to day responsibility of actually doing it. Apologies if I’m wrong.
I am asking for real examples.
How do YOU ensure compliance with “intent” and “pre-registration”?
Which reports do you look at? How often?
How do YOU monitor “pre-registration” from away rounds?
It certainly isn’t obvious to me that there “just need to be random checks”, I can see no reference to this in any EG documentation and certainly the tone from other rules experts on here is that ALL acceptable scores must comply with the rules.

 

[IanM]

I don't see how you can check pre registration on the app! You could do it if the pro has to key it in the shop

As I keep saying, handicap manipulation isn't a new thing, but there was no need to make it easier

We have some folk on here who work hard to ensure their Club does it all properly. I'd be suprised if they were not a minority.

 

[D-S]

With respect, you haven’t answered any of my questions.
Your reply refers to things clubs and committees could do, and comes across as coming from someone who knows and makes the rules and procedures but doesn’t have the day to day responsibility of actually doing it. Apologies if I’m wrong.
I am asking for real examples.
How do YOU ensure compliance with “intent” and “pre-registration”?
Which reports do you look at? How often?
How do YOU monitor “pre-registration” from away rounds?
It certainly isn’t obvious to me that there “just need to be random checks”, I can see no reference to this in any EG documentation and certainly the tone from other rules experts on here is that ALL acceptable scores must comply with the rules.

I have had this responsibility personally in the past, I don’t have it now. However I do deal with a lot of different committees every week who do currently have this responsibility and they have informed me of the things they do,which I wrote in my post.
All acceptable scores must comply with the rules, however you must realise that it is impossible to guarantee that every one does. For example they must be played to the Rules of Golf and without sending a referee out with every group this is impossible to ensure.
So spot or random checks, the frequency of which is heavily dependent on volunteer time and availability is the way that most clubs do it.
The General Play Score report on the portal gives download time, score submission time and attested time as well as attester details if the player is using the EG App though not necessarily with ISV input scores, hence the recommendation to clubs to use the EG App for GP score entry. This report covers both home and away scores.
Checking the Score Listing by day report on the portal is also a quick and useful way to see who has put in cards and how and a good way of seeing those players that an eye is being kept on. This report only covers the home course but includes all visitor submitted scores. Tee time reports are obviously on your own clubs website.

 

[woofers]

Thank you for your honest response, I use all the reports you have mentioned plus the Unsatisfied Score Intent, it can be time consuming but you get to know what to look for.
From the General Play report you can assess the elapsed time from score download to submission, and gauge that against how long you think the round should take, anything exactly 2 hrs smacks of being input after the round has been played. Query this, by email, and you get a variety of responses, usually to do with wi-if / internet connectivity, phone battery etc etc.
Of course there is no way of knowing the acceptability of ‘away scores’ with regard to pre-registration or format of play, you just have to take it on trust, (unless the player and his attester are stupid enough to submit rounds for each other, from courses 50 miles apart…it happened).
The Unsatisfied Score report can point to those who have trouble finding an attester, when the scores come in a day or two late it is worth reviewing the tee sheet for just who exactly played that day.
The App could be improved by having geo-location requirement for the attester, after all in a competition scorecards are completed and verified immediately after play, so for General Play as the attester is present it shouldn’t be a problem. Why should the App allow 2 or 3 days grace for submissions, which is outside the requirement of RoH 4.3?
I like the WHS methods of handicap calculation, but it’s a shame that the technology from the governing body for General Play scores (to increase handicap submissions and ‘grow the game’) can be easily circumvented if desired, and relies on volunteers to police it.

 

[D-S]

We were advised by EG in their County Handicap Workshops in late 2022 that there was going to be geo location of the attester as well as the player, however this has been subsequently quietly dropped. This is a shame as ‘attester not present’ seems to be on the increase and be an issue with a significant amount of scores.

 

[LIG]

So I assume you have checked that just stating to your marker ‘this is for handicap’ is considered an ok method of pre registration by your Handicap Committee for all GP score at your club?

I'm not sure that it is accepted by a "Committee". We don't have one. This is a very new club and my first membership.

Many changes have happened in just the first month. Procedures have become better understood and the (I suppose you could call him) Club Secretary, has helped to make the members experience a happy one. This is just one of the many things he has dealt with and I for one, can't fault him.

Do they allow preregistration via the PSI screen?

We don't have a PSI screen (yet?)!

We don't have a proper clubhouse yet! We don't have.....

 

[LIG]

We were advised by EG in their County Handicap Workshops in late 2022 that there was going to be geo location of the attester as well as the player, however this has been subsequently quietly dropped. This is a shame as ‘attester not present’ seems to be on the increase and be an issue with a significant amount of scores.

I see the negatives of the "attester not present" but also the positives.

My personal experience has shown that the EG app doesn't work well (or at all) if there is weak signal. Consequently, when I played at my brother's club he couldn't attest my score, nor I his. The scores were already entered but neither of us could submit. Having been in the clubhouse for a good 40 mins, we both left for home and it was only several hours later that I remembered I had yet to sumbit and attest. This went through but I assume neither of our attestations would have, had we been limited to attesting in the environs of the club.

 

[D-S]

The ‘attester not present’ is an issue as it means that the person witnessing, attesting and corroborating the score was not present when it was done - i.e. did not play or walk alongside the player. It means that someone has just got a mate who wasn't there to agree it via their App.
This can never be a good thing.

 

[rulie]

The ‘attester not present’ is an issue as it means that the person witnessing, attesting and corroborating the score was not present when it was done - i.e. did not play or walk alongside the player. It means that someone has just got a mate who wasn't there to agree it via their App.
This can never be a good thing.

Sorry, but that doesn't sound like a good evaluation of the player(s) involved - a bit of a negative attitude?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I see the negatives of the "attester not present" but also the positives.

My personal experience has shown that the EG app doesn't work well (or at all) if there is weak signal. Consequently, when I played at my brother's club he couldn't attest my score, nor I his. The scores were already entered but neither of us could submit. Having been in the clubhouse for a good 40 mins, we both left for home and it was only several hours later that I remembered I had yet to sumbit and attest. This went through but I assume neither of our attestations would have, had we been limited to attesting in the environs of the club.

If you can’t get a signal to attest a score using the app, then simply…Get a blank scorecard. Fill it out with the details of the round played and your score for each hole. Sign it. Get a playing partner with you to counter sign it. Hand it in to your club.

 

[D-S]

Sorry, but that doesn't sound like a good evaluation of the player(s) involved - a bit of a negative attitude?

Not sure what you mean by a negative attitude?
I am referring to players who have had their score attested on an App by someone who was not present during the play of the round.
In order to attest a score you must be present whilst it is played. This is quite a fundamental rule, so it is difficult to be extremely positive about those who knowingly break it.

 

[jim8flog]

My personal experience has shown that the EG app doesn't work well (or at all) if there is weak signal. Consequently, when I played at my brother's club he couldn't attest my score, nor I his. The scores were already entered but neither of us could submit. Having been in the clubhouse for a good 40 mins, we both left for home and it was only several hours later that I remembered I had yet to sumbit and attest. This went through but I assume neither of our attestations would have, had we been limited to attesting in the environs of the club.

I used to have this problem where I play.

Talking to a few others they said they said they were fine with it.

A new phone (bought for other reasons) problem solved.

 

[Imurg]

When I use the app at Ellesborough I often can't get a signal in the car park, near the clubhouse or 1st tee.....
Standing on the 2nd tee - no problem.

 

[LIG]

If you can’t get a signal to attest a score using the app, then simply…Get a blank scorecard. Fill it out with the details of the round played and your score for each hole. Sign it. Get a playing partner with you to counter sign it. Hand it in to your club.

I appreciate that, but it would mean that I would probably play twice more before the manual entry was done. I always score every round so my HI is likely to be incorrect for those rounds.
The club have said we should always use the EG app especially for away scores no doubt because they also are aware of this issue.

I've been thinking of using one of those handicap calculating websites to keep track of my HI or even making a spreadsheet myself. I used to have one to track all sorts of info (prior to WHS) including gross, nett, stableford, eclectic, etc.

 

[LIG]

Not sure what you mean by a negative attitude?
I am referring to players who have had their score attested on an App by someone who was not present during the play of the round.
In order to attest a score you must be present whilst it is played. This is quite a fundamental rule, so it is difficult to be extremely positive about those who knowingly break it.

Its not something I'd ever do, but I was referring to a specific situation where, sitting down having a post round drink, we were both unable to link to EG to submit. I assume it was an issue with weak signal but it may also have been the EG server being exeptionally busy - I didn't think to ask the few others that were in the clubhouse at the time if they had the same issue.

Perhaps EG should request user feedback about the app so that tweaks are possible. Or maybe they already know all this!

 

[D-S]

Its not something I'd ever do, but I was referring to a specific situation where, sitting down having a post round drink, we were both unable to link to EG to submit. I assume it was an issue with weak signal but it may also have been the EG server being exeptionally busy - I didn't think to ask the few others that were in the clubhouse at the time if they had the same issue.

Perhaps EG should request user feedback about the app so that tweaks are possible. Or maybe they already know all this!

I, of course, have no issue with the situation you describe.

My point is regarding the many, many instances we have had/seen/heard about of players getting their mate to attest the round on the App despite the fact that their mate was miles away (in one case in a different country) whilst the round was being played.

 

[LIG]

I, of course, have no issue with the situation you describe.

My point is regarding the many, many instances we have had/seen/heard about of players getting their mate to attest the round on the App despite the fact that their mate was miles away (in one case in a different country) whilst the round was being played.

What proof is there that this has happened? Or is this a case of "someone said they knew of someone who..."?

I'm reluctant to accept such a definitive statement without something concrete. Otherwise it's a case of guilty until proven innocent and we all know there seems to be a lot of that going around these days!

 

[Arthur Wedge]

What proof is there that this has happened? Or is this a case of "someone said they knew of someone who..."?

I'm reluctant to accept such a definitive statement without something concrete. Otherwise it's a case of guilty until proven innocent and we all know there seems to be a lot of that going around these days!

It’s happened and people have had GP scores taken off and Handicaps suspended

People are manipulating the system and the EG app makes it easier to do this