4BBB Qualifying Scores

[SteveJay]

Just a quick question on this. I appreciate that under certain conditions (team score/contribution from each player) that a 4BBB score can be a qualifying score for handicap purposes.

We played such a competition last week which was deemed suitable for handicapping. Whilst me and my partner fell short of the qualifying score threshold, scoring 41 pts, the round does not appear in my records of qualifying competitions on either IG or England golf. Should it not be listed, even if there is no scores shown?

I ask because both our club and local leagues have eligibility requirements over minimum number of competition cards over a 12 month period. As this competition could have actually resulted in a qualifying score, should it not be included in my records. Doesn't seem right to me that it would only count as a competition card if we met the threshold.

 

[MACM85]

Just a quick question on this. I appreciate that under certain conditions (team score/contribution from each player) that a 4BBB score can be a qualifying score for handicap purposes.

We played such a competition last week which was deemed suitable for handicapping. Whilst me and my partner fell short of the qualifying score threshold, scoring 41 pts, the round does not appear in my records of qualifying competitions on either IG or England golf. Should it not be listed, even if there is no scores shown?

I ask because both our club and local leagues have eligibility requirements over minimum number of competition cards over a 12 month period. As this competition could have actually resulted in a qualifying score, should it not be included in my records. Doesn't seem right to me that it would only count as a competition card if we met the threshold.

I think you have to come in on 9+ scores in the round and score 42+ points for it to pop up on your handicap record. Miss the mark and it is a non counting round for handicap

 

[doublebogey7]

Whilst the the round played was acceptable for handicapping your score was not, as it didn't meet the threshold. It will not therefore not appear in your list of acceptable scores.

 

[Swango1980]

I'd be surprised if 4BBB would be "acceptable" for qualifying for certain events, especially if your score didn't meet the threshold. Competition organisers have a reason to state a minimum number of competition rounds. Let us say they set a value of 8 comp rounds. It would be a bit of a mockery if a person qualified because they entered 8 4BBB events, finishing with less than 42 points in all of them and thus having no scores impact their handicap.

 

[SteveJay]

Cheers guys, pretty much as I expected, and Swango pretty much nailed the rationale why it shouldn't apply. Thanks

 

[NearHull]

I'd be surprised if 4BBB would be "acceptable" for qualifying for certain events, especially if your score didn't meet the threshold. Competition organisers have a reason to state a minimum number of competition rounds. Let us say they set a value of 8 comp rounds. It would be a bit of a mockery if a person qualified because they entered 8 4BBB events, finishing with less than 42 points in all of them and thus having no scores impact their handicap.

I think the software doesn’t differentiate between formats when you search for competition scores v general play scores. I think your scenario ( albeit unlikely) of 8 x BBB results would count as ‘ entry qualification’ of 8 x Competition scores.

 

[wjemather]

I ask because both our club and local leagues have eligibility requirements over minimum number of competition cards over a 12 month period. As this competition could have actually resulted in a qualifying score, should it not be included in my records. Doesn't seem right to me that it would only count as a competition card if we met the threshold.

What do the club/league terms of competition actually say?
If it is just "comp scores", I'd guess they may have been written prior to 4BBB being used for handicapping and haven't been updated to say what I suspect is intended, i.e. "individual stroke play competition scores".

 

[SteveJay]

What do the club/league terms of competition actually say?
If it is just "comp scores", I'd guess they may have been written prior to 4BBB being used for handicapping and haven't been updated to say what I suspect is intended, i.e. "individual stroke play competition scores".

Probably right, but as the round does not appear anywhere on EG or IG details, there is no way that the league/club would know about it. It's not a big deal as I will have sufficient competition scores to be eligible, but some others might not.

 

[doublebogey7]

What do the club/league terms of competition actually say?
If it is just "comp scores", I'd guess they may have been written prior to 4BBB being used for handicapping and haven't been updated to say what I suspect is intended, i.e. "individual stroke play competition scores".

I'd argue that the term competition scores still applies, in that 4B scores are ore only acceptable if they meet the threshold.

 

[Billysboots]

Our club has a minimum competition rule. If you want to be eligible to win a monetary prize you must have played a minimum number of competitions during a rolling 12 months.

BUT, as this does not refer to qualifying competitions our competition secretary is required to keep manual records of all competitions played by every member, so that non qualifying events played during the winter months are included. It’s all very onerous, but it’s an issue largely created by a committee which opted for a blanket ban on qualifiers for four months of the year, regardless of course conditions and set up.

To answer the OP, as has already been mentioned your EG record only includes rounds which are suitable for handicap purposes. So qualifying competitions and GP cards submitted when allowed by the course you are playing. Scoring less than 42 points in a 4BBB, or scoring 42+ but not contributing on the requisite number of holes will mean your efforts are not suitable for handicap and as such will not be added to your EG record.

 

[wjemather]

Our club has a minimum competition rule. If you want to be eligible to win a monetary prize you must have played a minimum number of competitions during a rolling 12 months.

BUT, as this does not refer to qualifying competitions our competition secretary is required to keep manual records of all competitions played by every member, so that non qualifying events played during the winter months are included. It’s all very onerous, but it’s an issue largely created by a committee which opted for a blanket ban on qualifiers for four months of the year, regardless of course conditions and set up.

To answer the OP, as has already been mentioned your EG record only includes rounds which are suitable for handicap purposes. So qualifying competitions and GP cards submitted when allowed by the course you are playing. Scoring less than 42 points in a 4BBB, or scoring 42+ but not contributing on the requisite number of holes will mean your efforts are not suitable for handicap and as such will not be added to your EG record.

Sounds like a policy designed with the aim of ensuring participation and support of club competitions rather than anything to do with handicapping.

 

[Billysboots]

Sounds like a policy designed with the aim of ensuring participation and support of club competitions rather than anything to do with handicapping.

It’s to ensure that those playing in club competitions have a handicap which has some integrity, surely. I thought most clubs did it.

 

[wjemather]

It’s to ensure that those playing in club competitions have a handicap which has some integrity, surely. I thought most clubs did it.

There is nothing to be drawn from participation about the integrity of handicaps. The only things that can reasonably ensure the handicaps have integrity is the knowledge and diligence of Handicap Committees, and other players.

Most commonly, the requirement is for recent (submitted within the previous 12-24 month) acceptable scores. However, all this really does is ensure handicap records are up to date, and Handicap Committees have information with which to review - and they are generally no more useful than General Play scores in doing that (regular club comps have far more in common with General Play than they do elite stroke play tournaments - even if a small number of recreational golfers choose to treat the former as if they were the latter), although comparison of the two can be useful in identifying manipulation.

 

[Billysboots]

There is nothing to be drawn from participation about the integrity of handicaps. The only things that can reasonably ensure the handicaps have integrity is the knowledge and diligence of Handicap Committees, and other players.

A contradiction, surely.

The knowledge and diligence of handicap committees and other players must derive, amongst other things, from seeing how members perform relative to their handicap with a card in their hand.

 

[wjemather]

A contradiction, surely.

The knowledge and diligence of handicap committees and other players must derive, amongst other things, from seeing how members perform relative to their handicap with a card in their hand.

Counting the number of competitions someone has played in (which is all these conditions effectively are) has nothing to do with analysing their scores and handicap records.

There is no substantial difference between having a card in your hand for a run-of-the-mill club competition and having a card in your hand for a General Play round.

 

[Billysboots]

Counting the number of competitions someone has played in (which is all these conditions effectively are) has nothing to do with analysing their scores and handicap records.

There is no substantial difference between having a card in your hand for a run-of-the-mill club competition and having a card in your hand for a General Play round.

Please don’t split hairs.

This isn’t about “counting” competitions, as I suspect you well know. It’s about establishing enough about a golfer’s ability, playing under competition conditions, to satisfy yourself as a handicap committee that a player’s handicap bears some resemblance to their actual playing ability.

You can’t do that based on a single card. If you could then why, traditionally, were three cards always required for an initial handicap to be allocated? And, similarly, why does almost every club referred to here by forum members require a minimum number of cards, invariably from competitions, during the preceding rolling 12 months before golfers can win prize money?

I would argue GP cards are not suitable for the same purpose. I cited an example here a few weeks ago of a fella I played with earlier this year who had 30 plus cards on his EG record. On the face of it his handicap had integrity. Until it became apparent that, not only was his round with me his first ever competition round, but he also had absolutely no idea about the rules, even basic ones. If those 30 plus cards were submitted with a marker similarly clueless, what integrity does his handicap have?

That’s why the vast majority of clubs require cards from qualifiers. Because at least then there is a fighting chance that at least one player in each group has a grasp of the basics, thereby ensuring the scores returned have some integrity, as do the resulting handicap allocations and adjustments.

Or have they all made the same glaring mistake?

 

[wjemather]

Please don’t split hairs.

This isn’t about “counting” competitions, as I suspect you well know. It’s about establishing enough about a golfer’s ability, playing under competition conditions, to satisfy yourself as a handicap committee that a player’s handicap bears some resemblance to their actual playing ability.

You can’t do that based on a single card. If you could then why, traditionally, were three cards always required for an initial handicap to be allocated? And, similarly, why does almost every club referred to here by forum members require a minimum number of cards, invariably from competitions, during the preceding rolling 12 months before golfers can win prize money?

I would argue GP cards are not suitable for the same purpose. I cited an example here a few weeks ago of a fella I played with earlier this year who had 30 plus cards on his EG record. On the face of it his handicap had integrity. Until it became apparent that, not only was his round with me his first ever competition round, but he also had absolutely no idea about the rules, even basic ones. If those 30 plus cards were submitted with a marker similarly clueless, what integrity does his handicap have?

That’s why the vast majority of clubs require cards from qualifiers. Because at least then there is a fighting chance that at least one player in each group has a grasp of the basics, thereby ensuring the scores returned have some integrity, as do the resulting handicap allocations and adjustments.

Or have they all made the same glaring mistake?

Not splitting hairs at all.

Terms of competition that require a number of scores do next to nothing to establish the integrity of a handicap. They do little more than offer a false sense of security for people who don't know any better. There is simply no substitute for Handicap Committees doing their job effectively.

As I said at the time, you will find countless examples of groups going on their merry way playing in comps with no clue (and/or care) about the rules, and most club comps see people playing with the same group of mates every time with no rules oversight. There's nothing special about club comps that elevates them above such problems.

Having such ToCs is not a mistake; it's just not achieving what many people seem to think it does, and they exclude more people with genuine handicaps than those with dodgy ones.

 

[rulie]

Please don’t split hairs.

This isn’t about “counting” competitions, as I suspect you well know. It’s about establishing enough about a golfer’s ability, playing under competition conditions, to satisfy yourself as a handicap committee that a player’s handicap bears some resemblance to their actual playing ability.

You can’t do that based on a single card. If you could then why, traditionally, were three cards always required for an initial handicap to be allocated? And, similarly, why does almost every club referred to here by forum members require a minimum number of cards, invariably from competitions, during the preceding rolling 12 months before golfers can win prize money?

I would argue GP cards are not suitable for the same purpose. I cited an example here a few weeks ago of a fella I played with earlier this year who had 30 plus cards on his EG record. On the face of it his handicap had integrity. Until it became apparent that, not only was his round with me his first ever competition round, but he also had absolutely no idea about the rules, even basic ones. If those 30 plus cards were submitted with a marker similarly clueless, what integrity does his handicap have?

That’s why the vast majority of clubs require cards from qualifiers. Because at least then there is a fighting chance that at least one player in each group has a grasp of the basics, thereby ensuring the scores returned have some integrity, as do the resulting handicap allocations and adjustments.

Or have they all made the same glaring mistake?

I'm sure that there are players out there that fit your description. Hopefully though, they are few and far between, and will get "educated" even by playing within a fourball of others, often by playing a "game" (competition) within the fourball. It doesn't take formal "competitions" for players to become informed.

 

[Billysboots]

Terms of competition that require a number of scores do next to nothing to establish the integrity of a handicap. They do little more than offer a false sense of security for people who don't know any better. There is simply no substitute for Handicap Committees doing their job effectively.

But it’s helping them to do their job effectively, that’s my whole point!

How would you have a handicap committee monitor the handicaps of several hundred members if not via the submission of cards? I do not think a requirement to submit a handful of cards from qualifying competitions, if it aids a committee in ensuring that their competitions retain a degree of integrity, is an unreasonable requirement.

Our competition entries are in significant decline, primarily amongst low handicap golfers. In part they don’t trust the WHS, but they are also acutely aware of the number of events, especially 4BBB and team events, which are won by members who barely play in singles competitions.

I think we may have to agree to disagree and move on!

 

[wjemather]

But it’s helping them to do their job effectively, that’s my whole point!

How would you have a handicap committee monitor the handicaps of several hundred members if not via the submission of cards? I do not think a requirement to submit a handful of cards from qualifying competitions, if it aids a committee in ensuring that their competitions retain a degree of integrity, is an unreasonable requirement.

Our competition entries are in significant decline, primarily amongst low handicap golfers. In part they don’t trust the WHS, but they are also acutely aware of the number of events, especially 4BBB and team events, which are won by members who barely play in singles competitions.

I think we may have to agree to disagree and move on!

Players who are not submitting (enough) scores are identified during the annual review, with appropriate action taken by the committee (usually simple comms is sufficient) in order to get them to remediate their handicap record, particularly when it is known that the players play in other competitions from which scores are not hitting their handicap record (4BBB, scrambles, best-ball, match play, etc.).

ToCs that require scores are not helping the committee to do their job (although all scores provide data for review), they are an attempt to substitute for them not doing their job, but without any review of those scores it's nothing more than a symbolic gesture.