shortgame
Tour Rookie
As per the O/P a risk/reward short par 4 or a shortish par 3
Grant85
Head Pro
Was doing a bit of driving the past 2 days and listened to podcasts with golf course architects.
These were No Laying Up, one with Gil Hanse (Castle Stuart & Crail) and one with David McLay Kidd (the Castle Course and Mackrahanish Dunes). And also the Fried Egg with Andrew Green.
The consensus seems to be that they design a golf course for the average golfer. Ultimately these are the people who will be playing a golf course most often and more importantly paying to play on them. From a commercial point of view, if the average golfers don't enjoy a course, then it may well be a failure and they will feel they have failed.
Also that they felt a pond as a hazard was generally not a good hazard, especially greenside. Effectively taking someone out of play for maybe missing a green by a few yards. From a golfing point of view, far better to leave a player in play after a poor shot and given them an opportunity to recover with a great or good recovery shot.
Clearly the average golfer rule does get broken with some places where they want to have a course being used for pro tournaments. And commercially this can pay off, but it's not exactly guaranteed that a new course will play host to pro events. And certainly the architects were making the point was that a big part of their job was to make a course playable for the average golfer, with potential to still have it as a challenge for pros or top amateurs.
These were No Laying Up, one with Gil Hanse (Castle Stuart & Crail) and one with David McLay Kidd (the Castle Course and Mackrahanish Dunes). And also the Fried Egg with Andrew Green.
The consensus seems to be that they design a golf course for the average golfer. Ultimately these are the people who will be playing a golf course most often and more importantly paying to play on them. From a commercial point of view, if the average golfers don't enjoy a course, then it may well be a failure and they will feel they have failed.
Also that they felt a pond as a hazard was generally not a good hazard, especially greenside. Effectively taking someone out of play for maybe missing a green by a few yards. From a golfing point of view, far better to leave a player in play after a poor shot and given them an opportunity to recover with a great or good recovery shot.
Clearly the average golfer rule does get broken with some places where they want to have a course being used for pro tournaments. And commercially this can pay off, but it's not exactly guaranteed that a new course will play host to pro events. And certainly the architects were making the point was that a big part of their job was to make a course playable for the average golfer, with potential to still have it as a challenge for pros or top amateurs.
only trouble with building houses bordering the course is you get people who move in who are anti golf and not golfers. there are a number of courses that have had to change holes and make strange course routing decisions due to this.
we sold of a load of land by our practice ground on the whole it was members and golfers who brought the houses but a few are def anti the club, one guy writes a snotty letter on a weekly basis because he gets balls in his back garden. the club has offered netting to protect his property, but he refused as it will spoil his view. what he wants is to move the practice ground.... why move there in the first place
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
I'd probably go for a risk/reward short par 4 ideally from an elevated tee with a narrow landing area for the longer hitters, protected with some deep greenside bunkers and maybe a run off area. It's possible to hit in one but miss and you can suddenly make par hard work. The green would have some subtle slopes as those that don't go for it off the green still need to think about the best place to leave their second to leave the best birdie putt
Grant85
Head Pro
only trouble with building houses bordering the course is you get people who move in who are anti golf and not golfers. there are a number of courses that have had to change holes and make strange course routing decisions due to this.
we sold of a load of land by our practice ground on the whole it was members and golfers who brought the houses but a few are def anti the club, one guy writes a snotty letter on a weekly basis because he gets balls in his back garden. the club has offered netting to protect his property, but he refused as it will spoil his view. what he wants is to move the practice ground.... why move there in the first place
Some folk love a grievance and are simply not capable of co-existing with people.
When you think about America with law suits etc. There must be ways of positioning houses & gardens well out of range of wayward shots. But appreciate this limits the scope for this even further. And let’s be honest, there will always be the guy with a 120mph swing capable of hooking it 80 yards.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
The house owner will always win out over a golf club - seen it a few times with some courses around this area
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
We have a house right by our 10th which also backs onto the practice ground. Yes, they do get a fair number of balls into their garden off the tee and to give them their due have been pretty decent about it over the years, but now the club want to do different things like a short game area, use anything other than an iron on the practice ground and they have suddenly become very obstructive. The club are treating them with kid gloves as they can see issues in the future and moving the 10th tee would not only significantly impact the playing characteristics of the hole but cost significant cash. Better to play the long game sometimes
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Hate people like this. Same as those who buy places next to pubs and clubs then complain about the noise on a Friday night.only trouble with building houses bordering the course is you get people who move in who are anti golf and not golfers. there are a number of courses that have had to change holes and make strange course routing decisions due to this.
we sold of a load of land by our practice ground on the whole it was members and golfers who brought the houses but a few are def anti the club, one guy writes a snotty letter on a weekly basis because he gets balls in his back garden. the club has offered netting to protect his property, but he refused as it will spoil his view. what he wants is to move the practice ground.... why move there in the first place
Our 12th.
Elevated tee to a right to left dogleg fairway.
Take the corner on and get it wrong, you’re in the woods or ditch.
Slice it right and you’re in the trees with 200 still to play.
Hit it straight & long with no shape and you’re in the bunkers.
A short straight or a nice draw will reward you with a short iron to the green, which has a pond immediately to the right and woods to the left only 2 yards off the fringe and is also protected by 3 greenside bunkers on the left.
Nice on the eye, makes you think about you’re drive and approach, a very worthy signature hole.
Elevated tee to a right to left dogleg fairway.
Take the corner on and get it wrong, you’re in the woods or ditch.
Slice it right and you’re in the trees with 200 still to play.
Hit it straight & long with no shape and you’re in the bunkers.
A short straight or a nice draw will reward you with a short iron to the green, which has a pond immediately to the right and woods to the left only 2 yards off the fringe and is also protected by 3 greenside bunkers on the left.
Nice on the eye, makes you think about you’re drive and approach, a very worthy signature hole.
NorwichBanana
Assistant Pro
Par 3, 6th I believe?
http://www.sheringhamgolfclub.co.uk/course/hole-by-hole_flyover/
3 mins 10secs in.
NorwichBanana
Assistant Pro
7th Hole at Thorpeness GC. https://www.thorpeness.co.uk/golf/golf-course/
I usually base my rating of a course on the Par 3's, as this is why I rate Thorpeness so highly.
I usually base my rating of a course on the Par 3's, as this is why I rate Thorpeness so highly.
MendieGK
Tour Winner
terrible golf hole at Manor House.
6535
Newbie
only trouble with building houses bordering the course is you get people who move in who are anti golf and not golfers. there are a number of courses that have had to change holes and make strange course routing decisions due to this.
we sold of a load of land by our practice ground on the whole it was members and golfers who brought the houses but a few are def anti the club, one guy writes a snotty letter on a weekly basis because he gets balls in his back garden. the club has offered netting to protect his property, but he refused as it will spoil his view. what he wants is to move the practice ground.... why move there in the first place
Our 1st hole has houses down the left and expensive ones at that, but the house at the end gets the grief, he’s put solar panels up and are facing the course side, a couple of hooky ones have damaged his panels and Is playing up. The tee is ideal ‘IF’ no houses exist, they’ve tried taking a fairway bunker out on the right, no good, now they’ve put the OOBs further in!! It isn’t going to stop them from hitting driver tho. Only solution I’ve come up with is to move the tee further left by 10yds nearer the hedgerow of the houses and angle it away from them. It actually changes the hole completely, more of a dog leg and lesser of landing area for the driver.
If they don’t then it may change to a par 3!!!!! 🤦â€â™‚ï¸
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Wycombe Heights had to shorten a par to a par 3 because balls kept going in a garden.
To be honest, it's better as a par 3 anyway..
To be honest, it's better as a par 3 anyway..
stefanovic
Medal Winner
I don't need to go far to find one. The 18th at West Midlands.
At least it's P&P. Now I understand it also has a Par 6 at 725 yards.
2 reasons I hardly ever go there.
shortgame
Tour Rookie
West Cornwall had to change their first hole some years ago from a long par 3 to a short-mid length one on a different angle, due to balls damaging houses to the hole's right. Used to be a brutal start but is more enjoyable now
Grant85
Head Pro
Yes - I think the angle is very important. i.e. if you have houses down the left, then have the tee over on the left with the fairway angled away from the houses.
Clearly when building a new course (as they do in America and South Africa) it is much easier to plan and space things out effectively.
Royal Dornoch had to re route the 3rd hole on the championship course a couple of years ago. Used to be a straight hole, but now made it a dogleg, one house in particular was getting balls bouncing off the roof and even breaking tiles. If you ever go there its quite obvious which one it is, it has loads of different color tiles.
A guy also bought the house fight next to the first green, then immediately complained the greenskeepers cutting it were disturbing his family. the club wasn't allowed to cut the green before a certain time after that. i think they moved on recently so back to normal now. don't understand why you would buy a house that close to a golf course without realizing what it entails
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Even with New Courses there are issues - The Bedford was built recently and houses built around it , they have recently had to turn a very good par 4 into a par 3 because of one house , the guy had a massive greenhouse in the back garden which kept getting hit from hooked tee shots - went to court and won against the club.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Have to disagree with this this view!
Testing the mettle of the player with the dire consequences of 'bottling it' and still having to face the challenge of geting over, is something that 'needs to done' imo! Mind you, that could be because having played a lot of golf at a couse where 5 of the Par 3s have such a 'test', I quite (masochistically) enjoy the challenge!
I'm pretty neutral on 'signature' holes, but risk/reward and/or view(s) would likely be involved in any I would pick. Sunningdale Old 10th for the view, Carnoustie 2nd (too early?) for the 'disguise' and challenge and Swinley Forest 3rd for being a great Par 3 spring to mind. These, at least the latter pair, are probably simply 'personal favourites' as opposed to true 'signature' holes though.
