Wrist Hinge

[JustOne]

SEV part 3

If you apply that principle to someone like Stricker who has about 90 of hinge at the top of his swing, when he comes into the ball his right shoulder is a little bit lower, his hands are a little bit more forwards and he has a little bit more lag thru the ball than he had at address... he has a 1 TON weight on his shoulder..... it's enough, but he's one of the shortest hitters.

and Dustin Johnson has 2 TONS maybe more (LOL) on his shoulder (ignore the yellow lines they were on the vid I just captured)

As a result Dustin has a lower right shoulder, hands more forwards, and a bigger LAG angle, more lag than Stricker... and hits it miles longer.

 

[sev112]

JO
If this picture works,
This is my top of backswing position.
I have deliberately tried (as I try for most of my full swings) to keep the relationship between my wrists/grip to my forearms the same as at setup. This is my interpretation of what "zero wrist cock" means (to me at least). I have not lifted the club head vertically with my wrists, nor "flapped" them to the right, nor rolled my left forearm to the right.

The picture appears to have some similarity to Stricker somewhat between photo 2 and photo 3. But not as stylish (and I may well be too far inside,mwhichbis something I need to look at, but appears to be due to me keeping my right elbow tucked into my side on the backswing). But, I have kept my wrist/forearm relationship as it was at setup.

Foxy
What I interpret "loading" the shaft, is that at the end of the backswing, the clubheadvwants to carry on moving, while my hands stop the but end from moving, thereby imposing a bending moment along the shaft. Which when it unloads in the opposite direction, hopefully somewhere near the bottom of the swing, adds power.

Those are my interpretations anyway. My viewpoint being that an engineered bit of graphite and steel is much more repeatable than that of a very complex biomechanical system that is the human body. Again, just my interpretation. I like to let the club do whatbitbwasbsimplybdesigned to do, without me getting in the way of it not a dissimilar analogy to skiers and skis .

James , not sure i understand the stick drawing, maybe we can discuss face to face sometime

 

[sev112]

Aha pic 3 has just arrived - I think I see where you are coming from - will have a think about that

 

[SocketRocket]

Why not actually use a golf club at address position (though the left wrist is cupped there). The answer is about 50*.

But answer my previous question. Do you want P5 to equal P2? I certainly don't!

50 Deg hinge!! You must have a rubber wrist

Why dont you want the left arm and clubshaft to be at the same angular relationship at impact? Left arm Flying Wedge.

 

[JustOne]

50 Deg hinge!! You must have a rubber wrist

The position you described as a starting point isn't where we start our golf swing from, the wrist starts ulnar deviated in a 'hinged down' position, therefore you can hinge it up more.... like this...

Aha pic 3 has just arrived - I think I see where you are coming from - will have a think about that

I added Dustin Johnson


Your shoulder turn in your own swing is too flat, the left arm is too 'pinned' across your chest and you take the club way too far behind you,.. that's STUCK CITY!!!! :whoo:


..and YES your right elbow has to take some of that blame, it shouldn't be stuck to your side in the backswing.... note Stricker's WIDTH, you could do with some of that.... Stricker is a bad example though as he has SO MUCH width.. more than you have,... but less than Stricker would be ideal :thup:

 

[sev112]

The position you described as a starting point isn't where we start our golf swing from, the wrist starts ulnar deviated in a 'hinged down' position, therefore you can hinge it up more.... like this...

I added Dustin Johnson


Your shoulder turn in your own swing is too flat, the left arm is too 'pinned' across your chest and you take the club way too far behind you,.. that's STUCK CITY!!!! :whoo:


..and YES your right elbow has to take some of that blame, it shouldn't be stuck to your side in the backswing.... note Stricker's WIDTH, you could do with some of that.... Stricker is a bad example though as he has SO MUCH width.. more than you have,... but less than Stricker would be ideal :thup:

Yes, this exercise and purely taking those photos has shown me why iam so far inside at the moment, and Stricker's photos in comparison are useful.

 

[SocketRocket]

The position you described as a starting point isn't where we start our golf swing from, the wrist starts ulnar deviated in a 'hinged down' position, therefore you can hinge it up more.... like this...

That is your right wrist and it has a big cup in it. Try it with your left kept flat.

With the arms hanging down in an address position you are restricted with the amount of Ulnar Deviation you can achieve, well unless you have very short clubs or stand very upright.

 

[JustOne]

That is your right wrist and it has a big cup in it. Try it with your left kept flat.

With the arms hanging down in an address position you are restricted with the amount of Ulnar Deviation you can achieve, well unless you have very short clubs or stand very upright.

The left wrist is ulnar deviated at address (so is the right, just a bit less than the left), as as the left hinges vertically the right wrist increases it's 'cuppage', it's SUPPOSED TO.

At the top of your backswing it's meant to feel kind of like a waiter holding a tray of plates... cuppage in the right wrist (whilst the left is fairly flat).

 

[SocketRocket]

The left wrist is ulnar deviated at address (so is the right, just a bit less than the left), as as the left hinges vertically the right wrist increases it's 'cuppage', it's SUPPOSED TO.

At the top of your backswing it's meant to feel kind of like a waiter holding a tray of plates... cuppage in the right wrist (whilst the left is fairly flat).

The right wrist cuppage happens to remove the cuppage at address from the left wrist so it can flatten.

I dont get the 'Waiter holding a tray' position. if your right palm faced the sky you would be very shut. I would say the right palm should be facing forward at around 45 deg allowing the left wrist to remain flat.

 

[JustOne]

SEV part 4 (last part!)

So now that we've established that the right shoulder comes down 'bending the pole'.... we need to realise that with the right shoulder down there is LESS SPACE at impact than we had at address... the bent pole HAS to be shorter so that it fits into the smaller space (It's a bit of a chicken/egg scenario)

We bring the shoulder down so the hands can be forwards... now there's not enough space for what was 1m 70cm to fit into the new 1m 60cm space...... so we HAVE TO hinge the club in the backswing so it can get thru the 'gap' so to speak, on the downswing... like a 6' 10" man going thru a 6' 2" doorway... he has to bend to get thru, and you have to hinge the club for the same reason... to get thru the smaller 'gap' created because our right shoulder comes down.


^
^
you asked why is was NECESSARY to hinge, and this is why. :thup:

 

[SocketRocket]

View attachment 8048
JO
If this picture works,
This is my top of backswing position.
I have deliberately tried (as I try for most of my full swings) to keep the relationship between my wrists/grip to my forearms the same as at setup. This is my interpretation of what "zero wrist cock" means (to me at least). I have not lifted the club head vertically with my wrists, nor "flapped" them to the right, nor rolled my left forearm to the right.

The picture appears to have some similarity to Stricker somewhat between photo 2 and photo 3. But not as stylish (and I may well be too far inside,mwhichbis something I need to look at, but appears to be due to me keeping my right elbow tucked into my side on the backswing). But, I have kept my wrist/forearm relationship as it was at setup.

Foxy
What I interpret "loading" the shaft, is that at the end of the backswing, the clubheadvwants to carry on moving, while my hands stop the but end from moving, thereby imposing a bending moment along the shaft. Which when it unloads in the opposite direction, hopefully somewhere near the bottom of the swing, adds power.

Those are my interpretations anyway. My viewpoint being that an engineered bit of graphite and steel is much more repeatable than that of a very complex biomechanical system that is the human body. Again, just my interpretation. I like to let the club do whatbitbwasbsimplybdesigned to do, without me getting in the way of it not a dissimilar analogy to skiers and skis .

James , not sure i understand the stick drawing, maybe we can discuss face to face sometime

I agree with your reasoning.

 

[JustOne]

I dont get the 'Waiter holding a tray' position. if your right palm faced the sky you would be very shut. I would say the right palm should be facing forward at around 45 deg allowing the left wrist to remain flat.

I said LIKE a waiter, it's a common analogy used in golf, I'm surprised you've never heard of it.... I said that to keep it simple for you.

If it helps... then LIKE a CRAP WAITER, who slides the plates off the tray because it's SLIGHTLY tipped forwards. He still has more cuppage in the right wrist though.

 

[JustOne]

..and SEV.... swinging the club in the kitchen (or any other room in your house) will KILL your backswing because you have to keep the plane too flat or else you'd hit the ceiling!! ...and bathroom is notoriously bad for wall damage

 

[SocketRocket]

I said LIKE a waiter, it's a common analogy used in golf, I'm surprised you've never heard of it.... I said that to keep it simple for you.
If it helps... then LIKE a CRAP WAITER, who slides the plates off the tray because it's SLIGHTLY tipped forwards. He still has more cuppage in the right wrist though.

Course I know of it. As I said I dont like it as its misleading.

James. Why on earth do you need to start making these discussions insulting. It only adds to drag down the debate, you should be better than that.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

If the wrists don't hinge/cock/set to that 90* angle, then you've thrown away a potential source of power (actually specified as Power Accumulator # 2). That angle becomes (virtually) the maximum lag, so anything less than 90* is the equivalent of starting the downswing with a cast!

Here's a link that might help. http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/backswing.htm

And JO right (well probably more right than me) on the point where the angle is 90*. While it's not imperative, 90* at P3 is reasonably standard. It doesn't feel as if that happens though, but the wrist cock moves the club-head through a huge arc very quickly - just as un-cocking it does on the downswing.

Hawkeye. I bet you do get 'sufficient' wrist hinge. It's probably just not something you think about - and doesn't seem something you should think about either! As long as you are not unacceptably losing distance because of it, it's merely a trait of your swing. You probably have a better shoulder turn than most.

I understand that more power comes from wrist hinge, lag etc. I just agree with Sev112 and wonder if it is essential? When I posted a video of my swing earlier in the year one of the comments from JO was that I had to incorporate wrist hinge into my backswing. I haven't done and am hitting the ball better than ever - so is it really necessary?

 

[JustOne]

Course I know of it. As I said I dont like it as its misleading.

James. Why on earth do you need to start making these discussions insulting. It only adds to drag down the debate, you should be better than that.

It wasn't meant to be insulting - I apologise.... I meant I had use a simple analogy (a common one) for you, and indeed for everyone. The 'waiter/tray' analogy is very common, not precise, but good enough when you're talking about cuppage in the right wrist. I didn't think I needed to be precise in this instance and decided to 'keep it simple' and was effectively keeping it simple for YOU because you didn't seem to understand. Once again, it wasn't meant to be insulting, nor is this reply

 

[JustOne]

I understand that more power comes from wrist hinge, lag etc. I just agree with Sev112 and wonder if it is essential? When I posted a video of my swing earlier in the year one of the comments from JO was that I had to incorporate wrist hinge into my backswing. I haven't done and am hitting the ball better than ever - so is it really necessary?

It is because you have to get the 6' 10" man thru the 6' 2" doorway (as above)

You can do it LESS and get the 6'10" man thru a 6' 5" doorway... but then you'd have LESS LAG.


You COULD have the 6' 10" man go thru a 6' 10" doorway but then you'd have MINIMAL LAG...... and if you shift ANY weight forwards at all you'll top the ball (or flip the club and thin it!) as your hands won't be forwards enough.

 

[sev112]

..and SEV.... swinging the club in the kitchen (or any other room in your house) will KILL your backswing because you have to keep the plane too flat or else you'd hit the ceiling!! ...and bathroom is notoriously bad for wall damage

That's why I was using my 10 year old daughter's Hybrid

 

[Foxholer]

View attachment 8048
JO
If this picture works,
This is my top of backswing position.
I have deliberately tried (as I try for most of my full swings) to keep the relationship between my wrists/grip to my forearms the same as at setup. This is my interpretation of what "zero wrist cock" means (to me at least). I have not lifted the club head vertically with my wrists, nor "flapped" them to the right, nor rolled my left forearm to the right.

The picture appears to have some similarity to Stricker somewhat between photo 2 and photo 3. But not as stylish (and I may well be too far inside,mwhichbis something I need to look at, but appears to be due to me keeping my right elbow tucked into my side on the backswing). But, I have kept my wrist/forearm relationship as it was at setup.

Foxy
What I interpret "loading" the shaft, is that at the end of the backswing, the clubheadvwants to carry on moving, while my hands stop the but end from moving, thereby imposing a bending moment along the shaft. Which when it unloads in the opposite direction, hopefully somewhere near the bottom of the swing, adds power.

Those are my interpretations anyway. My viewpoint being that an engineered bit of graphite and steel is much more repeatable than that of a very complex biomechanical system that is the human body. Again, just my interpretation. I like to let the club do whatbitbwasbsimplybdesigned to do, without me getting in the way of it not a dissimilar analogy to skiers and skis .

James , not sure i understand the stick drawing, maybe we can discuss face to face sometime

1. Plenty of wrist cock/set/hinge in that pic. So I'm happy my presumption was indeed correct. Check the angle between arm, watch and the direction left hand is pointing - from the knuckles - and the angle of the right wrist (right forearm flying wedge).

2. Have that thought about loading a shaft if you wish, but it's an excellent way to get an over-snatchy transition imo - something I strive to avoid - fastest way to a cast/early release for me! Loading the shaft, to me, happens from the mid to late downswing and (hopefully) continues past impact.

 

[Foxholer]

The left wrist is ulnar deviated at address (so is the right, just a bit less than the left), as as the left hinges vertically the right wrist increases it's 'cuppage', it's SUPPOSED TO.

At the top of your backswing it's meant to feel kind of like a waiter holding a tray of plates... cuppage in the right wrist (whilst the left is fairly flat).

If it helps... then LIKE a CRAP WAITER, who slides the plates off the tray because it's SLIGHTLY tipped forwards. He still has more cuppage in the right wrist though.

Yep. that (the Ulnar Deviation) is my point about the thumb being horizontal, rather than about 25* upright when fingers are horizontal.

The rubbish waiter is the analogy I'd heard!