Worst Ryder Cup Captains?

[timd77]

Didn't one of our pairings change the holes they drove after the first foursomes outing? If so, that original stat can't have been that good.

Aberg & Fitzpatrick swapped holes, yeah. Was obviously a mistake since they went from 5 & 3 winners to 4 & 2 losers. No idea why they decided to change given the big win on day one - I mean they were 7 under for 15 holes which is absurd in foursomes. On Sunday with the order flipped - 2 under.

Hovland and McIntyre swapped as well I think, seemed to work as they won on day 2.

Of course you can have all the stats in the world but if your players aren’t as good as the opposition, then there’s generally only going to one outcome. It was generally accepted that both teams were pretty evenly matched this year, and so those fine margins and tactical decisions made all the difference.

 

[Springveldt]

Faldo.

Azinger went the whole 9 yards doing the captains' thing, giving it some thought. Faldo made it all about Faldo. Even his speech at the opening ceremony was all about him. Who would have thought.

Even his commentary on Sky Sports he turns it into about him.

 

[sunshine]

I believe it was from here: https://datagolf.com/ryder-cup/insights
I couldn't begin to understand what metrics it uses to decide what the best pairings are though.

It does rate Tommy-Rory and Rahm-Hatton as optimal pairings for us, but I guess those are no-brainers anyway. Funnily enough it recommended Aberg-Macintyre and Hovland-Fitzpatrick whereas we went Aberg-Fitzpatrick and Hovland-Macintyre, haha. So it seems like Europe were working off very similar stats to this Data Golf model and had similar findings.

Thanks - will have a look.

I am sure that the US team had a basis for pairing Morikawa and Henley. Obviously it didn't work, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Orikoru]

Thanks - will have a look.

I am sure that the US team had a basis for pairing Morikawa and Henley. Obviously it didn't work, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The data can't account for personalities, that's the thing people seem to overlook. I think if you're going to play competitive foursomes with someone, it's advantageous if you know each well and get on. Prevents bad feeling when one of you isn't playing great!

 

[irip]

The data can't account for personalities, that's the thing people seem to overlook. I think if you're going to play competitive foursomes with someone, it's advantageous if you know each well and get on. Prevents bad feeling when one of you isn't playing great!

100%. If your paired with Rory for example for some players it would be too intimidating for some it would bring out the best in them.
I think the Euro team also put a lot of effort into pairings they think will suit each other personality wise.
The US team may as well pick the names out of a hat

 

[sunshine]

100%. If your paired with Rory for example for some players it would be too intimidating for some it would bring out the best in them.
I think the Euro team also put a lot of effort into pairings they think will suit each other personality wise.
The US team may as well pick the names out of a hat

I think the US team put a lot of thought and effort in selecting the pairings. They actually played very well on Saturday, matching Europe’s scoring from day one. It’s just Europe were outstanding.

 

[sunshine]

It’s things like pairing long drivers with the better approach players, matching those strengths up to each hole. So that first hole at Beth page, you need a good driver off first, and the better approach player hitting in, and the better putter putting first.

It’s not just morikawa and English they got wrong. They had sheffler and Henley in the foursomes, instead of sheffler teeing off first (one of the longer drivers who would’ve taken it over the corner) leaving Henley as a strong approach player hitting into the green, they had Henley teeing off, he’s not long enough to take the corner on, so sheffler was hitting a good 40-50 yards longer into the green than our second player.

1. There are 17 other holes. Don’t think anyone bases their whole strategy on a single hole.
2. Sheffler is the best approach player in the world. His short iron distance control is incredible. Makes sense for him to be playing the approach shot, even if further back.

 

[irip]

I think the US team put a lot of thought and effort in selecting the pairings. They actually played very well on Saturday, matching Europe’s scoring from day one. It’s just Europe were outstanding.

I disagree. On a course which had its difficultly significantly reduced by the rough being cut down (Bradley’s choice) then scoring was always going to be very low.
Pretty much every decision Bradley made went against the US team.
That is in my opinion one of the reasons why he was a poor captain.
I completely accept you may disagree with that and it’s only my opinion

 

[timd77]

1. There are 17 other holes. Don’t think anyone bases their whole strategy on a single hole.
2. Sheffler is the best approach player in the world. His short iron distance control is incredible. Makes sense for him to be playing the approach shot, even if further back.

Not sure if you watched it but sheffler and Henley got battered on day one. Bradley got the tactics wrong, changed it for the next day and they faired a bit better.

 

[kp17]

I think specifically with sheffler it’s clear it’s just how his game is wired up, although he’s obviously still brilliant no matter what format he’s playing, the guy is a 72 hole strokeplay machine.
Driving, how good his approach play is, now putting, add in the fact he barely makes a mistake over 4 days… Just batters fields left right and centre.

18 hole fourball/foursomes clearly different story, no matter who they try pair him with.

 

[Orikoru]

I think specifically with sheffler it’s clear it’s just how his game is wired up, although he’s obviously still brilliant no matter what format he’s playing, the guy is a 72 hole strokeplay machine.
Driving, how good his approach play is, now putting, add in the fact he barely makes a mistake over 4 days… Just batters fields left right and centre.

18 hole fourball/foursomes clearly different story, no matter who they try pair him with.

What I find a little bit baffling - and this was perhaps the same for Tiger as well - is why they can't still be good in four-balls. Foursomes is tough, and if you're the best player in the world, it must be tough watching someone else play half your shots, possibly not as well as you would play them. But in four-balls you effectively play your own ball like normal. Why shouldn't they play well? I'd just pair them up with another similar 'lone wolf' personality if possible, so they'd both be focussed on their own game without any chit-chat and perhaps it would feel more like individual stroke-play for them.

 

[irip]

What I find a little bit baffling - and this was perhaps the same for Tiger as well - is why they can't still be good in four-balls. Foursomes is tough, and if you're the best player in the world, it must be tough watching someone else play half your shots, possibly not as well as you would play them. But in four-balls you effectively play your own ball like normal. Why shouldn't they play well? I'd just pair them up with another similar 'lone wolf' personality if possible, so they'd both be focussed on their own game without any chit-chat and perhaps it would feel more like individual stroke-play for them.

It is a little bit of a myth that Tiger was rubbish in Ryder cups, in 2 of them he was the top points scorer.
He definitely should have scored more than he did though seeing how dominant he was in majors.
I wonder if him and Scottie didn’t feel comfortable being the top player and the one the rest were looking at to lead the team?

 

[Orikoru]

It is a little bit of a myth that Tiger was rubbish in Ryder cups, in 2 of them he was the top points scorer.
He definitely should have scored more than he did though seeing how dominant he was in majors.
I wonder if him and Scottie didn’t feel comfortable being the top player and the one the rest were looking at to lead the team?

Tiger's record by format:


Lost more than twice as many pairs matches as he won. His last two RCs are bashing his statistics a little (2012 & 2018) as he was 0-7-1 combined in those two. Also he only played in one USA victory and seven defeats!

I personally just think you need a very singular mindset to become the best player, and this perhaps isn't conducive with team play. It works both ways, a lot of our best Ryder Cup players in recent times didn't win many majors between them - Garcia, Poulter, Westwood, Montie, etc. It's a very different game really, match play.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Tiger's record by format:
View attachment 59633

Lost more than twice as many pairs matches as he won. His last two RCs are bashing his statistics a little (2012 & 2018) as he was 0-7-1 combined in those two. Also he only played in one USA victory and seven defeats!

I personally just think you need a very singular mindset to become the best player, and this perhaps isn't conducive with team play. It works both ways, a lot of our best Ryder Cup players in recent times didn't win many majors between them - Garcia, Poulter, Westwood, Montie, etc. It's a very different game really, match play.

That bit there is the bit that matters. Garcia, Poulter, Monty ,Westwood only 1 major win between them!

Woods will be able to look back on his career as one of the 2 greatest golfers of all time only equalled by Nicklaus, the Europeans will be able to so well we had a good RC record!!! I know which all of them would rather have and if they say otherwise they’re lying!

A worse RC with a major or 2 makes their careers a lot better.

Tigers match play record is excellent when he played tournaments in that format. RC not so much team golf isn’t for everyone.

 

[irip]

Tiger's record by format:
View attachment 59633

Lost more than twice as many pairs matches as he won. His last two RCs are bashing his statistics a little (2012 & 2018) as he was 0-7-1 combined in those two. Also he only played in one USA victory and seven defeats!

I personally just think you need a very singular mindset to become the best player, and this perhaps isn't conducive with team play. It works both ways, a lot of our best Ryder Cup players in recent times didn't win many majors between them - Garcia, Poulter, Westwood, Montie, etc. It's a very different game really, match play.

Seeing he was the best player on the planet for quite a long time I agree you would think he would have an amazing Ryder cup record.

I wonder if there is a reason he didn’t perform as well as he should have?

My point was he was top scorer in 2 Ryder cups (might have been just US players).

Can players for some reason not be an amazing player in both Majors and Ryder cups?

 

[Orikoru]

Seeing he was the best player on the planet for quite a long time I agree you would think he would have an amazing Ryder cup record.

I wonder if there is a reason he didn’t perform as well as he should have?

My point was he was top scorer in 2 Ryder cups (might have been just US players).

Can players for some reason not be an amazing player in both Majors and Ryder cups?

This obviously isn't universally true, you have guys like Seve for us who did well in both - Rory too. But two of the best points-scorers for the US were Wadkins and Kite, who I think won one major each. Sometimes a player will be more suited to pairs matches or highest level individual stroke-play I guess. Then again the number of all players to have won multiple majors is pretty small as a percentage anyway. Langer, Olazabal & Rahm all have two majors and good Ryder Cup records. Justin Thomas' record is pretty good too, also two majors for him.

 

[irip]

I wouldn’t say Rory has been particularly dominant in either.
What he has been is a top player for a very long time.
His Ryder cup singles and fourballs record is not amazing (if I remember correctly).

Scottie at the moment is the worlds leading player who would of thought he would of lost all four of the matches played with a partner?

 

[Golfnut1957]

That bit there is the bit that matters. Garcia, Poulter, Monty ,Westwood only 1 major win between them!

Woods will be able to look back on his career as one of the 2 greatest golfers of all time only equalled bettered by Nicklaus, the Europeans will be able to so well we had a good RC record!!! I know which all of them would rather have and if they say otherwise they’re lying!

A worse RC with a major or 2 makes their careers a lot better.

Tigers match play record is excellent when he played tournaments in that format. RC not so much team golf isn’t for everyone.

Very close, but not equal.

 

[sunshine]

Not sure if you watched it but sheffler and Henley got battered on day one. Bradley got the tactics wrong, changed it for the next day and they faired a bit better.

Yes I watched it. It was beautiful.

I just think blaming the captain is an easy scapegoat. I'm sure they must have put some thought into the pairings, it's not the sole reason they got battered.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Very close, but not equal.

IMO Tiger is the GOAT, Nicklaus was not my era but I can recognise his legendary status as an equal. Skill keep my opinion and thank you for trying to correct me but no thanks.