World Handicap System

rulefan

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No it wasn't, SSS course ratings were all over the shop, clear discrepancies, because as you said it was down to how a scratch player would play the course that determined what your handicap was based upon.
SSS was only used by the EGU (the men's union). The USGA system was used by all other men's unions and ladies associations. The resultant CR was simply named SSS for convenience. For some years prior to WHS all EG men's courses have been rated under USGA and the CR used as the SSS. The two rating systems were broadly similar but the USGA CR had more fine detail. In my experience as the past county rating manager. we found very few variations between SSS and CR. Most were due to rounding the CR and others due to course changes that had been made since the last SSS rating (which could have been up to 10 years previously if the club hadn't bothered to notify us).
Until WHS slope was not used by CONGU although every course rated under USGA would have been given the bogey rating and slope (mainly used by overseas visitors).

Of course your handicap wasn't based on how a scratch player would play the course. Your handicap was/is dependent on how you scored on all the courses you played.
 

Banchory Buddha

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I don't know what point Banchory Buddha was making, but from my own point of view at my own club in Scotland, the course handicap boards are confusing and unhelpful as the rounded course handicaps provided cannot be used to work out your playing handicaps for whatever format of golf you are playing on any given day as the unrounded CH has to be used in Scotland as you know, which is not what is shown on the boards.

It makes no difference to official comps as the app or PSI tells you your PH when you sign in to an official comp, but for unofficial friendly golf e.g. a 4BBB with 3 friends, using the boards to look up your CH and from that calculate your PH can and does yield incorrect answers and therefore in Scotland, I find them unhelpful and would prefer they weren't on display.
Just this mate, for Scottish golfers (as I stated with my "except for viewers in Scotland" comment), the boards are effectively useless, and every club seems to have missed this when ordering, otherwise I imagine most wouldn't have bothered.
 

Banchory Buddha

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SSS was only used by the EGU (the men's union). The USGA system was used by all other men's unions and ladies associations. The resultant CR was simply named SSS for convenience. For some years prior to WHS all EG men's courses have been rated under USGA and the CR used as the SSS. The two rating systems were broadly similar but the USGA CR had more fine detail. In my experience as the past county rating manager. we found very few variations between SSS and CR. Most were due to rounding the CR and others due to course changes that had been made since the last SSS rating (which could have been up to 10 years previously if the club hadn't bothered to notify us).
Until WHS slope was not used by CONGU although every course rated under USGA would have been given the bogey rating and slope (mainly used by overseas visitors).

Of course your handicap wasn't based on how a scratch player would play the course. Your handicap was/is dependent on how you scored on all the courses you played.
Thanks Captain obvious :ROFLMAO:

I'm aware of all of that, what I, and in fairness many others said was the old SSS scores needed looking at, that was the area of the handicap system that was broken, there were obvious discrepancies that showed up in a clear set of strong handicaps from certain clubs, and weak ones from others.

Instead what we got was system that through everything out *except* the Course Ratings which are basically the same but now showing to the first decimal.
 

rulefan

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Thanks Captain obvious :ROFLMAO:

I'm aware of all of that, what I, and in fairness many others said was the old SSS scores needed looking at, that was the area of the handicap system that was broken, there were obvious discrepancies that showed up in a clear set of strong handicaps from certain clubs, and weak ones from others.

Instead what we got was system that through everything out *except* the Course Ratings which are basically the same but now showing to the first decimal.
That decimal is only of significance to about 10% of GB&I golfers and then only used when a Playing Handicap is to be calculated manually.
 

clubchamp98

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Yep.. but I was replying to a statement saying I didn't get a shot! :)

Maybe he meant any extra shots for a tougher course.... that is an assumption though
Yes I know.(y)
But it’s relative because most people would get an extra shot, so it isn’t a problem even your mate off scratch might get one.
We now have a very complicated system where you need two charts to work out your cap.
 

Swango1980

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So, for the first round in 39 rounds, since WHS began, PCC for my round yesterday was finally not zero, it was -1.

Interestingly, there were no competitions on at the club, so at least 8 general play rounds must have been submitted. I'd love to have faith in the -1 PCC, although now that I know that large societies that play actively agree to only submit cards if they beat 38 points, and there are other individuals who tend to submit good scores, and bin poor scores, then it gives me that niggling doubt. It would be good to see, out of interest, all scores submitted on any given day at your club. However, as far as I'm aware, this can only be done by club admin? Therefore, it relies on them to spot any suspicious scores being entered, rather than regular players, who could at least highlight anything to them if they wished.
 

IanM

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Yes I know.(y)
But it’s relative because most people would get an extra shot, so it isn’t a problem even your mate off scratch might get one.
We now have a very complicated system where you need two charts to work out your cap.

Well, as he is such a "stickler" I replied to the actual words he actually posted, not my assumption of what he meant. Although he means well!

WHS Summary for me...

I can live with the tables.
I like the idea of course handicaps.
I like the use of the App.

I get really miffed when something new is "discovered" then folk get admonished for being stupid as it is clearly explained on page 4,323 of the manual!
I get really miffed when organisations try and implement cultural change as if it were purely process based. (although that error has paid my bills for the past 15 years! :) )


now that I know that large societies that play actively agree to only submit cards if they beat 38 points,

I phoned the Sec of my Golf Soc when I saw that.... he said "What?" "We're supposed to submit scores to the Club we play at? Nope, never done that or been asked to do it!"

I guess that's further in the manual after the method for calculating the effect of cross winds when "having a wee!"
 

wjemather

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It is not, it's a rounded figure instead of the full decimal point from whence the playing handicap is calculated
That decimal is only of significance to about 10% of GB&I golfers and then only used when a Playing Handicap is to be calculated manually.
Of course, Playing Handicaps were never intended to be calculated manually.
 

wjemather

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Just this mate, for Scottish golfers (as I stated with my "except for viewers in Scotland" comment), the boards are effectively useless, and every club seems to have missed this when ordering, otherwise I imagine most wouldn't have bothered.
You are missing the purpose of Course Handicap boards, which is absolutely not for working out Playing Handicaps.
 

Colin L

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I don't know what point Banchory Buddha was making, but from my own point of view at my own club in Scotland, the course handicap boards are confusing and unhelpful as the rounded course handicaps provided cannot be used to work out your playing handicaps for whatever format of golf you are playing on any given day as the unrounded CH has to be used in Scotland as you know, which is not what is shown on the boards.

It makes no difference to official comps as the app or PSI tells you your PH when you sign in to an official comp, but for unofficial friendly golf e.g. a 4BBB with 3 friends, using the boards to look up your CH and from that calculate your PH can and does yield incorrect answers and therefore in Scotland, I find them unhelpful and would prefer they weren't on display.

The reality is that when 4 golfers get together for a friendly fourball they use their rounded course handicap. Exact values are for machines to deal with. and the reality is that for that friendly match it doesn't matter a jot.
 

IanM

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You are missing the purpose of Course Handicap boards, which is absolutely not for working out Playing Handicaps.

Genuine question... are you just saying that isn't the case because they are for working out course handicap first? They are ultimately for working out playing handicaps as well surely :)

Maybe the auths should have taken out a step in the process. Put the Playing Handicap on the blooming board for stroke play, then have a % for match play and other derivatives. Maybe that was too easy.
 

Banchory Buddha

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That decimal is only of significance to about 10% of GB&I golfers and then only used when a Playing Handicap is to be calculated manually.
We were talking about the Scottish interpretation, so 100% of what was discussed at that point.

And no, folks go to the first tee, saw the rounded number, and were doing 95% of that. For the first few weeks of the year I had loads of queiries why their playing handicap wasn;t what they thought it was going to be.

But, the point being made, was thae cost of those boards, and their use has been an utter waste of time.
 

wjemather

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Genuine question... are you just saying that isn't the case because they are for working out course handicap first? They are ultimately for working out playing handicaps as well surely :)

Maybe the auths should have taken out a step in the process. Put the Playing Handicap on the blooming board for stroke play, then have a % for match play and other derivatives. Maybe that was too easy.
No, they are for Course Handicaps only. In England, Wales and Ireland they may be used for onward calculation of Playing Handicaps, but that is not their purpose; and it is still recommended that such calculations are not done manually - England Golf's message has been along the lines of "play with your Course Handicap in mind and leave your Playing Handicap and competition results to the software". Of course, they are occasions when leaving it to the software is not possible, but the use of apps/calculators is recommended in such cases.

Course Handicap is required by the rules, and is what net double-bogeys adjustments are based on for handicapping; regardless of Playing Handicap, players should hole out in Stableford (for example) according to their Course Handicap when it affords them more strokes.
 

Banchory Buddha

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No, they are for Course Handicaps only. In England, Wales and Ireland they may be used for onward calculation of Playing Handicaps, but that is not their purpose; and it is still recommended that such calculations are not done manually - England Golf's message has been along the lines of "play with your Course Handicap in mind and leave your Playing Handicap and competition results to the software". Of course, they are occasions when leaving it to the software is not possible, but the use of apps/calculators is recommended in such cases.

Course Handicap is required by the rules, and is what net double-bogeys adjustments are based on for handicapping; regardless of Playing Handicap, players should hole out in Stableford (for example) according to their Course Handicap when it affords them more strokes.
That's sound advice tbf, I may use that for the perpetual moaners.
 

IanM

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No, they are for Course Handicaps only. In England, Wales and Ireland they may be used for onward calculation of Playing Handicaps,


A tip from a well meaning bloke on the forum... The use of it by the poster was pretty clear and it isn't "may"... it is exactly that in practice despite what advise may be given (and I haven't been to Scotland since WHS) .

The second half of #1183 however is great qualification of what you said. I think that is generally poorly understood by most golfers. Maybe that's because the explanation of it was... well you know! Also, for most club gofers, we are only talking about on or two holes where this is an issue, so maybe that's why the lack of understanding. (not sure I knew)

Players have (in practice) operated on a "playing handicaps" for as long as there have been handicaps..(even if not called same)........... so chances of awareness is slim, I'm in Wales and have seen no such message. The manatra has always been "HI, table to get CH, then shoes and socks off to work out PH" Then folk focus solely on the Ph. (I'll test this on my 4 ball in the morning and I bet none of them know that net double-bogeys adjustments are based on CH. ) Folk still focus on the "do I get a shot here (in the comp) or not??"

Every day us a school day

Edit: Donna has just entered the room so I asked her about this. She said, "Don't confuse me any further. We (St Pierre GC) have been told to just put CH on the card and the machinery will sort out the comp. I know what ever I score, a couple will come off it for the comp!"

I wonder if that helps or not :)
 
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Swango1980

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A tip from a well meaning bloke on the forum... The use of it by the poster was pretty clear and it isn't "may"... it is exactly that in practice despite what advise may be given (and I haven't been to Scotland since WHS) .

The second half of #1183 however is great qualification of what you said. I think that is generally poorly understood by most golfers. Maybe that's because the explanation of it was... well you know! Also, for most club gofers, we are only talking about on or two holes where this is an issue, so maybe that's why the lack of understanding. (not sure I knew)

Players have (in practice) operated on a "playing handicaps" for as long as there have been handicaps..(even if not called same)........... so chances of awareness is slim, I'm in Wales and have seen no such message. The manatra has always been "HI, table to get CH, then shoes and socks off to work out PH" Then folk focus solely on the Ph. (I'll test this on my 4 ball in the morning and I bet none of them know that net double-bogeys adjustments are based on CH. ) Folk still focus on the "do I get a shot here (in the comp) or not??"

Every day us a school day
I'm getting sick and tired of asking people what their course handicap is. You usually get an answer, but then you usually need to prolong the discussion to determine what handicap they are actually giving you. More often than not, they are telling you their Playing Handicap. I don't think any are aware that the course handicap is the one that is required under the rules, and the chances they know they should use their course handicap when deciding whether to pick up or not is remote.
 

jim8flog

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I'm getting sick and tired of asking people what their course handicap is. You usually get an answer, but then you usually need to prolong the discussion to determine what handicap they are actually giving you. More often than not, they are telling you their Playing Handicap. I don't think any are aware that the course handicap is the one that is required under the rules, and the chances they know they should use their course handicap when deciding whether to pick up or not is remote.

To me what I find irritating is that in Stableford Comps (the most common form of competition play here) far too many are obsessed by their points instead of their gross score and many want to check the points rather than the gross scores. I totally agree with you last sentence and wonder how many pick up
too early thereby affecting their Handicap Index calculation.
 
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