World Handicap System

wjemather

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As above, and as D-S also says, it's clearly not. Not once this year has our course had a PCC change, and conditions have varied wildly.
However, scoring must have generally remained within the expected range (with those scoring better/worse than their expected range cancelling each other out). Therefore it is working as it should.
 

wjemather

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It seems that PCC does not kick in half as often as CSS. As far as I am aware their purpose is much the same, i.e. to take account of weather/course difficulties so as to make the adjust the score recorded to better reflect the ability needed to shoot a particular number.

This leads to one question - which does/did the job most accurately?

Perhaps the CSS was too sensitive - though certainly not my experience. If this 'insensitivity' of PCC remains the case then is there a mechanism for adjusting it in future?
CSS was certainly overly sensitive to a relatively small number of low handicappers playing badly.
 

rulefan

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I did say "should". I can't guarantee it DOES, given I also have no idea how it works, and the fact it does not seem to change anywhere near as much as CSS did. I'd like the handicap authorities to explain how it actually works, rather than expect us to have blind faith in it.

However, as I said, the purpose of it is that it SHOULD account for conditions. If it doesn't, then that flaw needs to be addressed.
Did you know and understand just how the old CSS tables were derived? The mechanics of the process were specified in the manual but the justification for the table values and %ages were never explained. Blind faith perhaps?
 

rulie

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Here's how I explain the PCC in the 19th: the computer looks at the the handicaps of all the players who have entered a score (before midnight) at that specific course on that specific day and generates a distribution of expected scores for that population of players (must be at least eight players). It then looks at the actual scores that have been entered by those players and generates a distribution for those actual scores. It then compares the characteristics of these two separate distributions to each other. If there are statistically significant differences (at an unknown probability level) between these two distributions, it looks at a table and applies the appropriate adjustment.
I'm quite certain that there was a lot of statistical work done by experts to establish the probability levels used and the table for adjustments. Imo, it is very conservative and maybe that is the way it should be.
Scores not entered into WHS before midnight are not taken into consideration.
 
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Please clarify if they are winter greens (i.e. greens that are used throughout the winter that meet all rules) or temporary greens (that are used on an ad-hoc basis).
Temporary greens with a hole in the fairway - marked with a white line.
I don’t expect to have qualifying scores during winter but it would be good for us to be able to continue to have ‘Winter Handicaps’ as ive done for the past 14 years since moving up here from Dorset - where apart from Jan and Feb we had counting competitions all year.
 

jim8flog

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So if we have 18 winter greens for 3 months how can that be in accordance with WHS?
If the greens are always the same greens in winter the course can be rated for such. We have one green so rated for all year round when the part of the course next to the river floods.
 

jim8flog

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Hardly. Lack of distance due to cold, lack or run, courses play much longer in winter. We have no winter greens, only open or closed.

.
Playing where I play (South Somerset) in winter I take a least two clubs more than summer simply due to the cold, probably lose around 25% of driver distance, lack of of run and extra layers of clothing, fairway grass is kept longer. One big advantage is that the greens are generally wetter and soft so you land on the green and be reasonably confident of the ball stopping, putting gets worse though as the greens are slower.

In summer our rough is much more penal (around 10" deep at present) and the fairways being baked can lead to some strange bounces.

There was a time when all my handicap downs came in winter and my ups in summer but now it is pretty even - my ups are coming whatever the time of year:LOL::LOL:
 

3offTheTee

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Over what period of time.
W N Wilson Cup Format: Individual Medal Handicap Allowance: 95% Handicap Index Limit: 36.0 £3 entry, Optional Two's £2. To qualify for 1st prize and the trophy players must have registered at least 12 qualifying competitive or casual round scores in their WHS record in the rolling 2 year period prior to the date of the competition.
 

3offTheTee

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Here's how I explain the PCC in the 19th: the computer looks at the the handicaps of all the players who have entered a score (before midnight) at that specific course on that specific day and generates a distribution of expected scores for that population of players (must be at least eight players). It then looks at the actual scores that have been entered by those players and generates a distribution for those actual scores. It then compares the characteristics of these two separate distributions to each other. If there are statistically significant differences (at an unknown probability level) between these two distributions, it looks at a table and applies the appropriate adjustment.
I'm quite certain that there was a lot of statistical work done by experts to establish the probability levels used and the table for adjustments. Imo, it is very conservative and maybe that is the way it should be.
Scores not entered into WHS before midnight are not taken into consideration.
I am NOT querying any of the above, quite the opposite but played in A Seniors Open @Royal Dornoch last Saturday, great course which most people know.

Rating 71.1, slope 129 Par 70 SSS71. The winning score was 70 and in one category a76 was in the prizes. I would have thought a PCC adjustment may have been appropriate if ever there was a case here. If I have quoted the incorrect terminology apologies but hope you get the general gist. 120 players were in the competition.
 

rulie

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I am NOT querying any of the above, quite the opposite but played in A Seniors Open @Royal Dornoch last Saturday, great course which most people know.

Rating 71.1, slope 129 Par 70 SSS71. The winning score was 70 and in one category a76 was in the prizes. I would have thought a PCC adjustment may have been appropriate if ever there was a case here. If I have quoted the incorrect terminology apologies but hope you get the general gist. 120 players were in the competition.
First question - were all the scores entered into the WHS before midnight?
Next question - on what basis do you believe a PCC would be appropriate? Obviously the "system" didn't think that there was a statistically significant difference between the distribution of expected results and the distribution of actual results of the scores entered. As I said, imo, the PCC system is quite conservative. In two years of playing under the WHS, I think that there have been only 3 PCC adjustments in the 120+ rounds that I've played.
 

3offTheTee

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First question - were all the scores entered into the WHS before midnight?
Next question - on what basis do you believe a PCC would be appropriate? Obviously the "system" didn't think that there was a statistically significant difference between the distribution of expected results and the distribution of actual results of the scores entered. As I said, imo, the PCC system is quite conservative. In two years of playing under the WHS, I think that there have been only 3 PCC adjustments in the 120+ rounds that I've played.
1. Yes.
2.I said MAY have been appropriate not would. The basis of may was it is highly unusual for a winning score from 120 entries not be better than par. However I accept whatever the system quotes.
 

wjemather

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1. Yes.
2.I said MAY have been appropriate not would. The basis of may was it is highly unusual for a winning score from 120 entries not be better than par. However I accept whatever the system quotes.
Par doesn't matter for handicapping. After reversing the 95% competition allowance, there were at least 9 players who bettered the Course Rating (possibly more after NDB adjustments) and many others were within a few strokes of the CR.
 

3offTheTee

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Par doesn't matter for handicapping. After reversing the 95% competition allowance, there were at least 9 players who bettered the Course Rating (possibly more after NDB adjustments) and many others were within a few strokes of the CR.
Sir

This is a forum and I am afraid everybody is not as well versed as you.During post number 889 I apologised for any incorrect terminology and I am aware that par is irrelevant but appreciate your comments.
 
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And nor should there be. Clubs have been encouraged to get their "winter course(s)" measured and rated for many years. The course then simply needs to be setup per WHS requirements, as they would be in summer, and scores are acceptable for handicapping.
I think it’s a good idea for some clubs at least. The form of golf played at our course in the winter is quite different to summer golf. Using it fir handicapping purposes would result in less accurate handicaps IMO.
 
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However, scoring must have generally remained within the expected range (with those scoring better/worse than their expected range cancelling each other out). Therefore it is working as it should.
This response is saying nothing other than “the system came up with an answer of X therefore X is the right answer”.
Recently we have had quite a few PCCs of -1, so it can come up with a non zero answer. Scores have been very very low though.
 

Old Skier

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W N Wilson Cup Format: Individual Medal Handicap Allowance: 95% Handicap Index Limit: 36.0 £3 entry, Optional Two's £2. To qualify for 1st prize and the trophy players must have registered at least 12 qualifying competitive or casual round scores in their WHS record in the rolling 2 year period prior to the date of the competition.
Can’t remember if this was an open, if it was or using this system in an open, how do you check visitors records?
 

rulie

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Can’t remember if this was an open, if it was or using this system in an open, how do you check visitors records?
In our system (Canada), we have a "handicap lookup" option where you can enter the players name and view his or her handicap record - works for anyone in Canada who has a Golf Canada handicap.
 

Old Skier

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In our system (Canada), we have a "handicap lookup" option where you can enter the players name and view his or her handicap record - works for anyone in Canada who has a Golf Canada handicap.
Yep, we have it also but it will only show HCs. I presume @3offTheTee club where they appear to be making it mandatory for people to play a number of Qs/Casual rounds they won’t be able to stick to their conditions of entry when it comes to opens.
 
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