World Handicap System (WHS)

[rulefan]

I appreciate that, but respectfully suggest that Rule 6.2a was written with normal modes of golf in mind, not Scrambles. Even Appendix C, the only place where scrambles are mentioned, states that the percentages are only recommended.
To answer 3offthe Tee's question, at Rhuddlan you would get 7.9, at rulefan's gaff you would get 7.

How do you justify second guessing the R&A/USGA? There is nothing in the text to suggest the meaning is not universal.

The %ages may be recommended but the rounding is stated as mandatory.
How would you play off 16 x 95% 15.2 in a medal?

 

[IanMcC]

And, if I may add, the percentages were changed to stop low handicappers scooping everything in scrambles, so my method is better.

 

[nickjdavis]

Scrambles surely have got to be done to 1 decimal place. To do other wise invites an increased likelihood of a tie. Our last scramble we had 4 teams within a nett score of 1.3 of each other at the top of the leaderbaord.

 

[IanMcC]

How do you justify second guessing the R&A/USGA? There is nothing in the text to suggest the meaning is not universal.

The %ages may be recommended but the rounding is stated as mandatory.
How would you play off 16 x 95% 15.2 in a medal?

You wouldn't use that in a medal, obviously. A medal is real golf. 6.2a applies wholeheartedly, as I stated earlier.
I dont really think the R&A or USGA give a stuff what people do in a scramble. They just gave suggested figures to push the average handicap total up a bit.

 

[3offTheTee]

25% of 5 is 1.25 = 1.3, or 1 at rulefans

20% of 11 is 2.2, or 2 at rulefans

15% of 16 is 2.4, or 2 at rulefans

10% of 20 is 2.0, or 2 at rulefans



So 7.9 against 7, surely?

Not going against anything you have said have reading Rulefan’s posts over many years, and knowing his knowledge from personal messages my team will be playing off 7 in the above example.

however I really appreciate tour input IanM

 

[IanMcC]

Not going against anything you have said have reading Rulefan’s posts over many years, and knowing his knowledge from personal messages my team will be playing off 7 in the above example.

however I really appreciate tour input IanM

Are you running the event? If not, surely you will follow the organisers advice. If so, good luck to you, and I hope you are good at countbacks!

 

[IanM]

Our club uses Master Scoreboard. I see all trace of handicapping has been removed. But we'll still key our scores on it.. wonder it'll pick up the multiple handicap thingies we all have now to update net scores and HIs

 

[rulefan]

And, if I may add, the percentages were changed to stop low handicappers scooping everything in scrambles, so my method is better.

Not quite. The only one where the value is set to 'equalise' the chances of low and high cappers is the 95% in individual stroke play. It is only new in CONGU. Australia and North America had a equivalent prior to WHS

The %ages have not been changed for scrambles. There has never been any recommendation or suggestion previously for scramble handicaps by any golfing authority .

 

[rulefan]

Scrambles surely have got to be done to 1 decimal place. To do other wise invites an increased likelihood of a tie. Our last scramble we had 4 teams within a nett score of 1.3 of each other at the top of the leaderbaord.

So how do you resolve ties in a medal or stableford? Decimals are not used there.

 

[harpo_72]

So how do you resolve ties in a medal or stableford? Decimals are not used there.

Think the decimal was intro’d for the scrambles. It just makes it easier or you would be counting back for virtually all places. The likelihood in a standard format is lower but even so the count back from my experience of it being applied just stops when the score is worse... so being in the mix but having a bogey in the last 3 holes means your chances of winning have dropped significantly .. a scramble is just a rather large collection of gross and nett birdies so you would count back possibly 5 ,7 or even 9 holes.. which would be time consuming.

Anyway, I will leave this here as this system is immature and not found it’s feet yet, and needs to get itself sorted out. I am pretty sure it will eventually, but in all honestly speaking it wasn’t necessary and it’s just making someone very wealthy.

 

[sweaty sock]

Think the decimal was intro’d for the scrambles. It just makes it easier or you would be counting back for virtually all places. The likelihood in a standard format is lower but even so the count back from my experience of it being applied just stops when the score is worse... so being in the mix but having a bogey in the last 3 holes means your chances of winning have dropped significantly .. a scramble is just a rather large collection of gross and nett birdies so you would count back possibly 5 ,7 or even 9 holes.. which would be time consuming.

Anyway, I will leave this here as this system is immature and not found it’s feet yet, and needs to get itself sorted out. I am pretty sure it will eventually, but in all honestly speaking it wasn’t necessary and it’s just making someone very wealthy.

Has countback changed? I thought it was back 9, back 6, back 3, last hole?

 

[harpo_72]

Has countback changed? I thought it was back 9, back 6, back 3, last hole?

Don’t think it has a set process, apart from go back till the scores differ

 

[Ethan]

Has countback changed? I thought it was back 9, back 6, back 3, last hole?

Countback is simply meant to be a tie break that is clear and understandable, if not necessarily logical or fair. It is really a glorified coin toss, and if it doesn't resolve the tie, the next stage is an unglorified coin toss. Using decimals to break the tie would be much fairer and logical.

 

[rulefan]

Think the decimal was intro’d for the scrambles.
........a scramble is just a rather large collection of gross and nett birdies so you would count back possibly 5 ,7 or even 9 holes.. which would be time consuming.

Scramble scoring and handicaps have never had any formal recognition or universal convention. In fact I have experienced umpteen different variations. When run at my club it depends on who is organising. But almost always involves a countback as do all other social formats (eg best 3 of 4 etc).
Of course countbacks are sensibly done on the run as highest cards are returned.

 

[rulefan]

Countback is simply meant to be a tie break that is clear and understandable, if not necessarily logical or fair. It is really a glorified coin toss, and if it doesn't resolve the tie, the next stage is an unglorified coin toss. Using decimals to break the tie would be much fairer and logical.

Why don't we have decimals for medals then?
How often do you see a countback the resorts to a coin toss?

 

[Ethan]

Why don't we have decimals for medals then?
How often do you see a countback the resorts to a coin toss?

There is no logical reason not to use decimals for medals, but it really only matters for the top two or three positions. I have never seen a coin toss used, but it has happened, and is the accepted next step after countback. Some think that a coin toss is unfair while being happy with countback, not realising it is just a random method too. Using decimals is not random, just more precise than using the rounded up handicaps.

 

[rulefan]

So are you proposing decimals for medals and 3 from 4s. All non matchplay in fact?

 

[jim8flog]

So how do you resolve ties in a medal or stableford? Decimals are not used there.

When we have scrambles they are, very often, also a shotgun start so the normal method of deciding ties i.e. countback cannot be used.

Having done the cards for loads of them decimal points really is the best way to decide.

 

[nickjdavis]

Why don't we have decimals for medals then?

We do use decimals for medal countbacks though dont we?

If I've got 13 shots and countback is settled on the last three holes then my score for countback purposes over those three holes is my Gross Score over the 3 holes - (13*(3/18))

5A Committee Procedures
For net competitions where the stroke index allocation as set by the Committee is not used, such as individual stroke play, if the last nine, last six, last three holes scenario is used, one-half, one-third, one-sixth, etc. of the handicaps should be deducted from the score for those holes. Handicap stroke fractions should be applied in accordance with the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction

 

[rulefan]

Handicap stroke fractions should be applied in accordance with the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction

I take the point but countbacks don't stop at 3. They can go to all 18.

But re the words in red. The only thing I see in WHS is that Playing Handicaps are rounded. Has EG said anything else?