D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Great post
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Researched figures or a bit of guesswork? Just asking.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
No. In my head it makes no difference to me if I have to give a 28 handicapper 14 shots or 16 shots - even in a 4BBB match. I know that most of the time I can, at worst, cancel him out. I just have to accept that occasionally the high handicapper will have a blinder and in these situations the 2 shots extra he has on me will be irrelevant - I'd get stuffed whatever, But most of the time that doesn't happen.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Good to see the usual positions haven't changed - the change in handicap allowance merely being a good excuse to air them again!
Here's a few of my observations over the last 35 years of playing and organising matchplay events, and generally being the high handicapper in league and club events but the low one in senior matches.
Real golfers aren't interested in playing 4BBB - they may enter in the winter to win the thing but not just to take part. They have either busy golfing diaries with county events, ranking events and other commitments or they are juggling family, business and golf like the rest of us and have to prioritise somewhere.
You will generally see a higher proportion of improving golfers entering these events as they feel they do have a better chance of winning - of setting the hassle of arranging and playing. So there's always a valid element of the improving handicap players versus the established (stable) cat 1s . However this is more prevalent in singles.
If there is a significantly lower handicap player in a senior game they expect to win; if they lose its always because of the handicapping system, the bandits, etc and everyone will hear about it in the bar afterwards. Strangely the higher handicap players are more realistic and can even be heard to suggest that their opponents played well, or that they didn't have a good day.
The facts, or statistical evidence, is there for anyone to see in the calculation routines for handicapping. On top of this the international associations have also been gathering empirical data to check that this has been borne out in practice. NZ were the first to go to 100% and gathered data from clubs for a number of years to do this - sharing it with others. Most are now at 100% (when we are only moving to 90...the maths difference is so small it's irrelevant but the psychological impact is accepted as significant).
If you really want to see inequity in the competition system just look at medals - most cat 3s & 4s stopped playing in those a long time ago! Do they bleat about the inequity - strangely nothing like the cat 1st who lose at matchplay.
Finally, even at 100% the lower handicap player still has the reward for excellence built into the system on his side - which is why you would have to go to 105% to make it a truly fair fight! Nobody is suggesting this, so it seems that it is accepted that the lower guy has earned an edge; he just hasn't eared the right that many here (and elsewhere of course) seem to believe in.
Handicap golf is a game, anyone wishing to take it further is able to play in non handicap events as they see fit.
Here's a few of my observations over the last 35 years of playing and organising matchplay events, and generally being the high handicapper in league and club events but the low one in senior matches.
Real golfers aren't interested in playing 4BBB - they may enter in the winter to win the thing but not just to take part. They have either busy golfing diaries with county events, ranking events and other commitments or they are juggling family, business and golf like the rest of us and have to prioritise somewhere.
You will generally see a higher proportion of improving golfers entering these events as they feel they do have a better chance of winning - of setting the hassle of arranging and playing. So there's always a valid element of the improving handicap players versus the established (stable) cat 1s . However this is more prevalent in singles.
If there is a significantly lower handicap player in a senior game they expect to win; if they lose its always because of the handicapping system, the bandits, etc and everyone will hear about it in the bar afterwards. Strangely the higher handicap players are more realistic and can even be heard to suggest that their opponents played well, or that they didn't have a good day.
The facts, or statistical evidence, is there for anyone to see in the calculation routines for handicapping. On top of this the international associations have also been gathering empirical data to check that this has been borne out in practice. NZ were the first to go to 100% and gathered data from clubs for a number of years to do this - sharing it with others. Most are now at 100% (when we are only moving to 90...the maths difference is so small it's irrelevant but the psychological impact is accepted as significant).
If you really want to see inequity in the competition system just look at medals - most cat 3s & 4s stopped playing in those a long time ago! Do they bleat about the inequity - strangely nothing like the cat 1st who lose at matchplay.
Finally, even at 100% the lower handicap player still has the reward for excellence built into the system on his side - which is why you would have to go to 105% to make it a truly fair fight! Nobody is suggesting this, so it seems that it is accepted that the lower guy has earned an edge; he just hasn't eared the right that many here (and elsewhere of course) seem to believe in.
Handicap golf is a game, anyone wishing to take it further is able to play in non handicap events as they see fit.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Interesting point Duncan, if that is true how are these improving players meant to get their handicaps down? No wonder they win so many matches and get accused of being bandits
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Combo of personal experiences of the scoring I see and a bit of guesstimates too
A high handicapper isn't going to be a high handicapper if he's bettering handicap every 4th round
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Interesting point Duncan, if that is true how are these improving players meant to get their handicaps down? No wonder they win so many matches and get accused of being bandits
It's noticeable that at many clubs the lower handicap players favour playing in medal events and the higher ones favour stableford - obviously everywhere has a hardcore that play in anything!
At some clubs it's quite extreme - unsurprisingly the more challenging overall the course is the greater this tends to be. Challenging in this context is represented by the ease with which significant scores can be accrued on holes!
I suspect, but don't have any statistical support for the view, that the higher the proportion of medal play at a club the more they will have matchplay bandits! It's tough to keep giving it everything you have when starting 9, 9 but simply blobbing the first couple of holes doesn't have quite the same mental impact!
MendieGK
Tour Winner
I dont mind whether i play Stablefords or Medals, but isn't golf supposed to be about playing 18 holes in the minimum amount of shots possible?
If so, then all comps should be medals. If a high handicapper is truly focused on improving their handicap then they wont care about winning comps off 24 in a stableford but would rather finish top 10 in a medal and get cut via the help of stableford adjustments.
If h/c didn't exist in competition play then high h/c golfers would not play, why pay into a prize fund that they can never hope to win. I would just be paying out money to better golfers. I gave up on medal play some time ago, I choke everytime. I'm not bothered about missing those comps but I suspect clubs would rather I and others like me did play as a full competition is better than purely 20 blokes playing on a Saturday and the rest of the club playing social golf.
Stableford and 4BBB are chance for high h/c to have a pop and perhaps have a small chance of glory. 9 times out of 10 it wont happen, the evidence seems to be out there as people are posting, but we enter those comps for the chance of that one. If low h/c don't want that then fine. Set the h/c at 50% and go and enjoy your comp. The list will be emptier, the prize pot lower but hey, a proper golfer will win.
There are plenty of comps in the year for good golfers to win and show their skill. High h/c don't moan about those, we accept it is part of sport and golf. Comps like 4bbb are a chance for us to join in with everyone else and hope that our game comes off on that particular day.
Great post by Duncan - He explained it more eloquently than I have but I wanted to do more than just a thumbs up emoji.
Stableford and 4BBB are chance for high h/c to have a pop and perhaps have a small chance of glory. 9 times out of 10 it wont happen, the evidence seems to be out there as people are posting, but we enter those comps for the chance of that one. If low h/c don't want that then fine. Set the h/c at 50% and go and enjoy your comp. The list will be emptier, the prize pot lower but hey, a proper golfer will win.
There are plenty of comps in the year for good golfers to win and show their skill. High h/c don't moan about those, we accept it is part of sport and golf. Comps like 4bbb are a chance for us to join in with everyone else and hope that our game comes off on that particular day.
Great post by Duncan - He explained it more eloquently than I have but I wanted to do more than just a thumbs up emoji.
MendieGK
Tour Winner
Thats just having a poor mental approach then and not understanding the situation.
In a recent comp, i started with an 8 (all of my shots gone), but i said to myself - that's a double (for handicap purposes), so i pushed on and shot a good round.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Bearing in mind that all handicap adjustments are based on stableford scoring adjustment, what you are saying is that you only play competitions to win and not get a cut??
No. The only comps I have ever won have been Texas Scrambles so my expectations are not to win in singles events. I actually play to get cuts, not to win, but I bomb on strokeplay so leave that alone. I play Stablefords as that is not as tense. Team events are a pressure off situation so that helps the h/c more as it is often tension that does for us.
However a little like having to pay into the longest drive competition on a society day when your longest is going to be less than some blokes hit a rescue it is entirely pointless paying into a pot if you are never going to win. We pay enough in fees without throwing an extra amount away. There has to be a chance of winning to encourage people to play in comps otherwise you just say no thanks, I'll give that comp a miss and play socially this week. That can't be good for a club or the comp. You want to encourage people to join in, not put up barriers so that you think it is not worth it.
However a little like having to pay into the longest drive competition on a society day when your longest is going to be less than some blokes hit a rescue it is entirely pointless paying into a pot if you are never going to win. We pay enough in fees without throwing an extra amount away. There has to be a chance of winning to encourage people to play in comps otherwise you just say no thanks, I'll give that comp a miss and play socially this week. That can't be good for a club or the comp. You want to encourage people to join in, not put up barriers so that you think it is not worth it.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
You miss my point. You can make an almighty hash of a hole in a medal and NR on it but it doesn't matter as it will count as a nett double bogey (or blob in stableford terms) so you can still get cut. So why not enter medals as well if you want to get cut?
It is psychological. You go chasing holes in strokeplay. In Stableford it is easy to wipe off a hole and think you can catch it up over a few holes. Finish a strokeplay with a score in the high 90's and it is crushing. After 9 holes in stableford you may have taken the same number of shots as the strokeplay comp at the same stage but your point score may be better and you somehow feel you can pull back on the back nine. Weak I know, all up top.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Unfair generalisation Duncan. I hope that I am a real golfer - and although individual strokeplay and matchplay, and foursomes, are my preference - I do enjoy the social aspect of 4BBB. Further in a match I played on Saturday I spent a fair bit of time during the round advising the 28 handicapper of the pair we were playing who had only recently joined on the rules and quirks of rules and how they apply round our track. And he expressed his appreciation that I was happy to spend the time doing that.
Rest of your post I can agree with
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
But you're coming from a position of strength, to play off the handicap you do I would imagine your very steady and more than capable of getting those shots back.
I'm off 14 and will play every Saturday or Sunday in a comp regardless of format, aim is to improve and get cut, if I have a bad start I will obviously try and get it back, but mentally for me it's a struggle as I don't have the consistencey someone as good as yourself has.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Real golfers in this context are those with low handicaps who don't consider any handicap events important.
They probably also consider themselves naked without at least one DMD, and wouldn't even dream of playing without one.
The label is theirs, not mine.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Scott W
Assistant Pro
I really struggle to understand the "bandit" concept, don't get me wrong I know they exist and I myself have been called one on occasion!
I play off 19, since joining the club over 5 years ago my handicap has bounced between 20 (when I started) and 18.5 at it lowest. I play around 6-8 qualifiers a year (would like to play more but hard to play on a Sunday when most comps occur due to family commitments - kids footy)
I have the ability to par every hole on my course, have birdied many of them but cant seem to put an 18 hole card together that reflects my sporadic ability.
Classic example on Sunday, playing the 18th in 4BBB I hit a fantastic drive straight down the middle about 280 (on a wet fairway) leaving 100 to the pin (gap wedge) which I hit to 10 feet and 2 putted for par and a 2 up win. In the bar afterwards one of our opponents who is off 8 said "a 19 handicap shouldn't have 100 yards to flag from middle of fairway on 18!"
I am desperate to get my h'cap down - I genuinely believe I have the ability to be 14-16 at least and am regularly told by PP's in medal round "you hit it much better than a 19 handicap" .....as I sign for another net 73 and buffer grrrr!
I play off 19, since joining the club over 5 years ago my handicap has bounced between 20 (when I started) and 18.5 at it lowest. I play around 6-8 qualifiers a year (would like to play more but hard to play on a Sunday when most comps occur due to family commitments - kids footy)
I have the ability to par every hole on my course, have birdied many of them but cant seem to put an 18 hole card together that reflects my sporadic ability.
Classic example on Sunday, playing the 18th in 4BBB I hit a fantastic drive straight down the middle about 280 (on a wet fairway) leaving 100 to the pin (gap wedge) which I hit to 10 feet and 2 putted for par and a 2 up win. In the bar afterwards one of our opponents who is off 8 said "a 19 handicap shouldn't have 100 yards to flag from middle of fairway on 18!"
I am desperate to get my h'cap down - I genuinely believe I have the ability to be 14-16 at least and am regularly told by PP's in medal round "you hit it much better than a 19 handicap" .....as I sign for another net 73 and buffer grrrr!
