Why Does He get To Choose?

[rulefan]

In the real world if a questioner asks for the correct solution to a problem and says you are wrong when given a correct answer because it wan't the one the questioner chose, he would be laughed out of court.
If the R&A can be precise when using the words a and the in the Rules, why not in their quizzes?
Are they being deliberately awkward?

 

[duncan mackie]

In the real world if a questioner asks for the correct solution to a problem and says you are wrong when given a correct answer because it wan't the one the questioner chose, he would be laughed out of court.
If the R&A can be precise when using the words a and the in the Rules, why not in their quizzes?
Are they being deliberately awkward?

I think you are reading way to much into the issue Colin raises.
If the options are
A. Blue
B. Red
C. Red or Blue
and both red and blue are valid, then to argue that both A and B are equally correct is, IMO, equally laughable.

 

[rulefan]

Surely it depends on the exact wording of the question.

 

[bobmac]

I foresee punch-ups on the fairways next year

 

[duncan mackie]

Surely it depends on the exact wording of the question.

Agreed, and in the absence of "which of the following are correct?" (Which is absent here, and in the other example Colin has quoted recently) it is normal to assess the best fit answer.

 

[jim8flog]

So I hit my ball 230 yards right of the fairway into some 1st and 2nd cut rough, there is also some thicker rough close by.
General thought is that it is easily findable.
Off we go.
Get to the area and it's not obvious where the ball is so we start looking.
After a minute and a half, the ball isn't found I decide to walk back and hit a provisional.
By the time I've walked back, my 3 minutes are up so the ball I replay from the tee becomes the ball in play.
Nobody is going to do this.
Nobody is going to look for 90 seconds and then go back knowing that they will be playing 3 off the tee, leaving others looking who may not really want to find your ball.
Everyone will spend the 3 minutes looking for the ball before going back.
Someone tell me I'm wrong...
This is a nonsense.

and eventually everybody will learn to hit a provisional off the tee before leaving it, if there is any chance that the ball might be lost.

 

[clubchamp98]

I foresee punch-ups on the fairways next year

If the rules gurus can’t agree on the interpretation what chance us mere mortals.
These changes are supposed to make it easier.

 

[bobmac]

If the rules gurus can’t agree on the interpretation what chance us mere mortals.
These changes are supposed to make it easier.

Exaactly.
Especially when there are people out there who still think a single player has no standing

 

[duncan mackie]

If the rules gurus can’t agree on the interpretation what chance us mere mortals.
These changes are supposed to make it easier.

The only disagreement between Rulefan, Colin and I is over the appropriateness of best fit answers in mutlpul choice assessments. Not the application of the rules in this instance (although I wait to be corrected o that of course!)

 

[rulie]

If the player had not said "provisional" before dropping the ball, would anyone's view be different?

 

[Colin L]

If the player had not said "provisional" before dropping the ball, would anyone's view be different?

Yes. The player would have to continue with the dropped ball because when she put the seond ball into play it was under stroke and distance, thus putting the original ball out of play. [18.1]

 

[clubchamp98]

The only disagreement between Rulefan, Colin and I is over the appropriateness of best fit answers in mutlpul choice assessments. Not the application of the rules in this instance (although I wait to be corrected o that of course!)

That’s ok then!
Just a technicality.

 

[rulie]

Yes. The player would have to continue with the dropped ball because when she put the seond ball into play it was under stroke and distance, thus putting the original ball out of play. [18.1]

Then I suggest that the referee could tell the player to pick up the "provisional" ball because the original had been found and the provisional must then be abandoned, and he must continue with the original, or drop the ball again and proceed under stroke and distance. Technically correct but strange and not necessary, imo.

 

[Colin L]

I think you are reading way to much into the issue Colin raises.
If the options are
A. Blue
I
B. Red
C. Red or Blue
and both red and blue are valid, then to argue that both A and B are equally correct is, IMO, equally laughable.

Colloquially, I can see more correct being used, but when multiple choice questions are set and correct is set against wrong , correct should be an absolute. To label an answer wrong when it is correct on the basis that it is not quite as correct as a "properly" correct one does not make sense to me and damages the learning purpose of the quiz.

In a question like "In foursomes who is permitted to drop the ball" it is true to say any one of the following:
the player whose turn it is to play;
his partner;
either the player whose turn it is or his partner.

The last is perhaps the desired answer in terms of being comprehensive but for either of the others to be labelled wrong is wrong. If you want to elicit the knowledge that either can drop the ball, the True/False type of question could be the way to do it. "....... either the player whose turn it is to play or his partner can drop the ball. True or False?"

I remember when observing a teacher who was trying to guide a class through a poem, She slapped down a pupil's response to a question about the significance of a line in it. The boy's response was actually a vaild, and indeed sensitive interpretation and I was just thinking "That was good. Hadn't thought about it that way" when I heard the dismal downer of "No" from the teacher. It was not the answer she wanted - nor had thought about any more than I had, I expect.. Not multiple choice but the boy's response was one of a range of "correct" replies and the expression on the his face showed the damage done by telling someone he is wrong when he is right.

But it's probably not worth the energy I've spent ranting about it.

 

[duncan mackie]

Colloquially, I can see more correct being used, but when multiple choice questions are set and correct is set against wrong , correct should be an absolute. To label an answer wrong when it is correct on the basis that it is not quite as correct as a "properly" correct one does not make sense to me and damages the learning purpose of the quiz.

In a question like "In foursomes who is permitted to drop the ball" it is true to say any one of the following:
the player whose turn it is to play;
his partner;
either the player whose turn it is or his partner.

The last is perhaps the desired answer in terms of being comprehensive but for either of the others to be labelled wrong is wrong. If you want to elicit the knowledge that either can drop the ball, the True/False type of question could be the way to do it. "....... either the player whose turn it is to play or his partner can drop the ball. True or False?"

I remember when observing a teacher who was trying to guide a class through a poem, She slapped down a pupil's response to a question about the significance of a line in it. The boy's response was actually a vaild, and indeed sensitive interpretation and I was just thinking "That was good. Hadn't thought about it that way" when I heard the dismal downer of "No" from the teacher. It was not the answer she wanted - nor had thought about any more than I had, I expect.. Not multiple choice but the boy's response was one of a range of "correct" replies and the expression on the his face showed the damage done by telling someone he is wrong when he is right.

But it's probably not worth the energy I've spent ranting about it.

The problem is that whilst I completely agree with everything you have written here, and elsewhere, the question isn't worded as true or false - it asked what is the ruling? Where a single choice is required you have to chose which represents the best ruling from the choices given. The problems start when the complicated questions are converted to such multiple choice formats - which, as you know, is only really a recent approach, and the higher level examination retains the 'answer the question' approach!

 

[duncan mackie]

That’s ok then!
Just a technicality.

#74 covers the technicality; which has no relevance to the ruling.

 

[duncan mackie]

Then I suggest that the referee could tell the player to pick up the "provisional" ball because the original had been found and the provisional must then be abandoned, and he must continue with the original, or drop the ball again and proceed under stroke and distance. Technically correct but strange and not necessary, imo.

This is the really interesting aspect raised by the answer given in the first case, and I agree with you that Colin's response isn't completely satisfactory either.

If I'm reading you use of parenthesis correctly we agree.

When the player announces that they are playing a provisional, and drops a ball (within the appropriate timeframe and relief area etc) it isn't a ball in play, it's a provisional ball and becomes a 'ball in play' under specific circumstances - unlike a player proceeding under stroke and distance where, when dropped validly, the ball is a ball in play (ignoring the further complications around the teeing ground in the 2019 rules!).

So once the original ball is found within 3 minutes the ball dropped loses its status as a provisional ball.

At which point we have this rules quiz answer which states that if the player wishes to continue under stroke and distance they may play the ball already dropped. Whether this becomes a ball in play when he decides to do so, on announcement or when he makes a stroke at it obviously isn't covered here; but is important!

Clearly the player could also chose to pick it up and 'start again'; which rather brings us full circle on the question initially asked - why should he have the choice over the lie he already has, or dropping again?

The answer may lie in the continued reference to making play quicker, or it may be that this whole line of discussion is flawed and the player cannot simply convert the ball, dropped as a provisional but not played, and then proceed under stroke and distance and play it where it lies.

This seems to me to be the real question arising from the question and answer provided here?

 

[Colin L]

The problem is that whilst I completely agree with everything you have written here, and elsewhere, the question isn't worded as true or false - it asked what is the ruling? Where a single choice is required you have to chose which represents the best ruling from the choices given. The problems start when the complicated questions are converted to such multiple choice formats - which, as you know, is only really a recent approach, and the higher level examination retains the 'answer the question' approach!

Checking back through the thread, it looks as we have been coming at this from different places. In Post #1, the OP says that the question was "What is the ruling?" In Post #13, Paul quotes a full question which asks "What is the ruling? In Post #28, the OP tells us that he changed the original "Which one of the following is correct." to "What is the ruling?" In the next post, Paul quotes a question on the same matter which ends "Which one of the following is correct?" The ones I have come across on the R&A site asks for one correct answer as far as I remember.

I've been sounding off about questions which ask you to identify one correct answer but which offer more than one correct choice but I see the point you're making about a question which asks "What is the ruling?" That is asking for what a referee would tell the players what is permissible and in that case, I'd agree there can be a better or best answer.

 

[Colin L]

Then I suggest that the referee could tell the player to pick up the "provisional" ball because the original had been found and the provisional must then be abandoned, and he must continue with the original, or drop the ball again and proceed under stroke and distance. Technically correct but strange and not necessary, imo.

I did struggle a bit with why the player was not being required to drop the ball again but concluded there seemed no reason why, having already dropped a ball provisionally in the correct place, that drop did not meet the requirement for stroke and distance relief. The original ball has been in play all the time and so there is no break in continuity of the relationship of the second ball to the original. Although finding the original changes the nature of that relationship, I can't see anything that says this necessitates another drop.

I'm not wholly confident in this! What do you think?

 

[rulie]

I did struggle a bit with why the player was not being required to drop the ball again but concluded there seemed no reason why, having already dropped a ball provisionally in the correct place, that drop did not meet the requirement for stroke and distance relief. The original ball has been in play all the time and so there is no break in continuity of the relationship of the second ball to the original. Although finding the original changes the nature of that relationship, I can't see anything that says this necessitates another drop.

I'm not wholly confident in this! What do you think?

Colin, my opinion is that the second drop is not required, although a strict reading of the Rules might suggest otherwise.