Why Does He get To Choose?

[Imurg]

So I hit my ball 230 yards right of the fairway into some 1st and 2nd cut rough, there is also some thicker rough close by.
General thought is that it is easily findable.
Off we go.
Get to the area and it's not obvious where the ball is so we start looking.
After a minute and a half, the ball isn't found I decide to walk back and hit a provisional.
By the time I've walked back, my 3 minutes are up so the ball I replay from the tee becomes the ball in play.
Nobody is going to do this.
Nobody is going to look for 90 seconds and then go back knowing that they will be playing 3 off the tee, leaving others looking who may not really want to find your ball.
Everyone will spend the 3 minutes looking for the ball before going back.
Someone tell me I'm wrong...
This is a nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I totally agree Imurg your scenario is nonsense, but that’s just 1 of possibly hundreds of thousands of scenarios.
The scenarios in the op are not back to tee shots, they are fairway shots.
Another scenario, you shank your shot 80yds to the rough, seen were the ball went and think you’ll find it, you get there and it’s deeper than you thought, after 30 seconds you decide to go back etc etc.
Also in your scenario, if it’s not in a comp, you may have the lost ball option available to you.

 

[Imurg]

That scenario is one that will happen regularly
Substitute the tee shot for a 200 yard fairway shot and the results are the same.
You still have 90 seconds to search before needing to head back to play a Provo - or spend that time trying to find your ball.
Nobody is going to walk back early - it's just not going to happen.

 

[Imurg]

Another scenario, you shank your shot 80yds to the rough, seen were the ball went and think you’ll find it, you get there and it’s deeper than you thought, after 30 seconds you decide to go back etc etc.

Here, you're not going back to play a provisional, you're taking stroke and distance...you've decided you won't find the ball so you've given it up.
Why are they bringing the term Provisional into it..?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Here, you're not going back to play a provisional, you're taking stroke and distance...you've decided you won't find the ball so you've given it up.
Why are they bringing the term Provisional into it..?

No, gone back to play a provisional as in q1 in the op, if my ball is found within 3 minutes I then get choose to play my original ball or my provisional (which will become stroke and distance if I play it).
That ruling suggests to me the provisional ball is not yet in play.

 

[Colin L]

It is, as I said, a potential time saver. The basic arithmetic tells you that. But you have a choice and whether you make use of it will depend on the circumstances. Not choosing it or not having the occasion to make use of it doesn't make it a nonsense.

The best feature is that it gives us clarity by tying in the playing of a provisional to a fixed time - the 3 minutes of the search.

 

[Colin L]

I totally agree Imurg your scenario is nonsense, but that’s just 1 of possibly hundreds of thousands of scenarios.
The scenarios in the op are not back to tee shots, they are fairway shots.
Another scenario, you shank your shot 80yds to the rough, seen were the ball went and think you’ll find it, you get there and it’s deeper than you thought, after 30 seconds you decide to go back etc etc.
Also in your scenario, if it’s not in a comp, you may have the lost ball option available to you.

Here, you're not going back to play a provisional, you're taking stroke and distance...you've decided you won't find the ball so you've given it up.
Why are they bringing the term Provisional into it..?

Because if the player states that he is going to play a provisional and plays a ball from where he played his previous shot within 3 minutes of starting to search, it is a provisional.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

It is, as I said, a potential time saver. The basic arithmetic tells you that. But you have a choice and whether you make use of it will depend on the circumstances. Not choosing it or not having the occasion to make use of it doesn't make it a nonsense.

The best feature is that it gives us clarity by tying in the playing of a provisional to a fixed time - the 3 minutes of the search.

Is it also changing the basic premise of when a ball is in play?
I thought a ball was in play once it had been dropped on a fairway, this seems to be saying it’s not in play until struck.

 

[Imurg]

No, gone back to play a provisional as in q1 in the op, if my ball is found within 3 minutes I then get choose to play my original ball or my provisional (which will become stroke and distance if I play it).
That ruling suggests to me the provisional ball is not yet in play.

Ok, here's one of my nonsense scenarios..
From the fairway you hit your ball 200 yards right into rough
You think you'll find it so you don't play a provisional
Get up there and you can't see it so start looking.
After a minute you decide to walk back and drop a "provisional"
Your ball is found just inside the 3 minutes
So you can decide which to play - but to do that you have to walk back to look at the first ball, make a decision and then retrieve the "Provo" if you're not going to use it.

How does walking all that way save time when you could look for your 3 minutes and then use S&D?
The lost ball scenario - wherever it is - is already covered under S&D rules.
Why does it need another interpretation?

 

[Imurg]

Because if the player states that he is going to play a provisional and plays a ball from where he played his previous shot within 3 minutes of starting to search, it is a provisional.

And the likelihood that he would actually be able to do this within 3 minutes is pretty remote.
It's going to take a minute or more to walk back, a few more seconds to drop, a few more to get your club, line up, stance etc etc.
Your personal searching time on a shot of more than 100 yards is down to about 30 seconds....

Search for 3 minutes then play S&D if you can't find it.
Simples.
Adding another layer of admin costs time.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Ok, here's one of my nonsense scenarios..
From the fairway you hit your ball 200 yards right into rough
You think you'll find it so you don't play a provisional
Get up there and you can't see it so start looking.
After a minute you decide to walk back and drop a "provisional"
Your ball is found just inside the 3 minutes
So you can decide which to play - but to do that you have to walk back to look at the first ball, make a decision and then retrieve the "Provo" if you're not going to use it.

How does walking all that way save time when you could look for your 3 minutes and then use S&D?
The lost ball scenario - wherever it is - is already covered under S&D rules.
Why does it need another interpretation?

I’ve already agreed your scenario is nonsense, this quiz question maybe wrong, I don’t know, but all your scenario’s are over large distances, sometimes they’re not.
Love this part of the forum as it’s educational.

 

[Imurg]

I’ve already agreed your scenario is nonsense, this quiz question maybe wrong, I don’t know, but all your scenario’s are over large distances, sometimes they’re not.
Love this part of the forum as it’s educational.

See..it's confusing me now

 

[duncan mackie]

The change in the rule is simply to remove any artificial restriction that requires judgement regarding how far forward can a player go before he is no longer permitted to return and proceed under the provisional ball rules.
This is now replaced by a practical, natural, set of circumstances. As easily as you can construct a situation where it would be silly you can construct another where it's sensible all round (as sensible as the provisional ball rule can ever be!).

 

[rulefan]

If you don't like the optional rule, don't use it. Simple.
If it is appropriate, I will. If it's not, I won't.

 

[rulie]

Maybe the three minute time limit, and its implications, will cause more players to play a provisional before leaving the spot. Remember, "saving time" isn't the sole goal of the game.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Back to the original question, Q2 is incorrect, the constraint on walking forwards changes on 01 Jan.
Have I got it right?

 

[duncan mackie]

Back to the original question, Q2 is incorrect, the constraint on walking forwards changes on 01 Jan.
Have I got it right?

Don't know what you are trying to say?

Based on the wording of the questions posted in #1, and options in post #21, both are correct (in the context of multiple choice responses where the best answer is requested. If the option of the correct answer to (1) was available to (2) it would also be the correct answer, but as it isn't the answer provided is the best fit).
In practice as both the 2nd and 3rd must be wrong (because you cannot continue with a "provisional ball" in the situation given once the original ball has been found within the 3 minutes) the other choice must be right!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Don't know what you are trying to say?

Based on the wording of the questions posted in #1, and options in post #21, both are correct (in the context of multiple choice responses where the best answer is requested. If the option of the correct answer to (1) was available to (2) it would also be the correct answer, but as it isn't the answer provided is the best fit).
In practice as both the 2nd and 3rd must be wrong (because you cannot continue with a "provisional ball" in the situation given once the original ball has been found within the 3 minutes) the other choice must be right!

Not trying to say anything, just to educate myself, hence asking the question. “Have I got it right?”
Thank you for the clarification, as obviously I hadn’t.

 

[Colin L]

Don't know what you are trying to say?

Based on the wording of the questions posted in #1, and options in post #21, both are correct (in the context of multiple choice responses where the best answer is requested. If the option of the correct answer to (1) was available to (2) it would also be the correct answer, but as it isn't the answer provided is the best fit).
In practice as both the 2nd and 3rd must be wrong (because you cannot continue with a "provisional ball" in the situation given once the original ball has been found within the 3 minutes) the other choice must be right!

To pick up on what you say about multiple choice, I'm not with you on the idea that the options should include more than one correct answer and you are expected to choose the better or best of them. The question above typically asks "Which one of the following is correct" and I have found with another R&A quiz question, you can choose one of two correct answers and be told you are wrong. That is not good assessment practice. if you want to present more than one possiblity you need to have only one incorrect answer and ask "Which is the incorrect answer."

 

[duncan mackie]

To pick up on what you say about multiple choice, I'm not with you on the idea that the options should include more than one correct answer and you are expected to choose the better or best of them. The question above typically asks "Which one of the following is correct" and I have found with another R&A quiz question, you can choose one of two correct answers and be told you are wrong. That is not good assessment practice. if you want to present more than one possiblity you need to have only one incorrect answer and ask "Which is the incorrect answer."

That's the way the R&A (particularily) have always done it. It's a function of their levels approach in rules education where, on one level, they expect you to know X but, at another they expect X+ understanding.
Your approach would be spot on if testing the component elements - the later level questions become more realistic in trying to examine how these come together in realmsituations, and even interact, which also influenced the style. Best fit.
Not being judgemental on its merits, but the assessment practice fits the educational approach - but clearly falls down (looks bizarre) when moved to an ad hoc online comparison of different teachers style, potentially designed for different levels of learning.
If you did that for physics you would potentially have actual different answers completely - ie yes for 14 year olds and no for 17 year olds, to exactly the same question!