WHS Software status - from a major ISV

[rulefan]

On 16th September CONGU announced that WHS will replace the Unified Handicapping System from November 2020, for clubs currently using the CONGU handicapping system.

The official CONGU announcement is available here:

https://www.congu.co.uk/world-handicap-system-2/

We have now been called to a meeting in late September 2019 in which we hope CONGU will start to explain the changes and give guidance as to what will be required.

At the current time, we have no detailed technical information from CONGU we can provide and we look forward to the golf unions and CONGU starting their conversation with the handicapping software suppliers soon.

We can confirm that we are working to implement the World Handicap System, and await full details to complete development in the product range for our customers.

 

[duncan mackie]

Link isn't there?

 

[rulefan]

Link isn't there?

If you meant the second one, I have removed that as it was a link back to this post when I mistakenly posted in 'Rules'.

 

[duncan mackie]

If you meant the second one, I have removed that as it was a link back to this post when I mistakenly posted in 'Rules'.

Ah, and I did...thanks for clarifying.

 

[IanMcC]

From my short time on this site it is obvious that rulefan is the guy with his finger on the pulse.
I am currently on our M&H committee, and from November, when I retire, I will be the M&H chairman.
What are your gut feelings on the WHS changes, rulefan? I know we will be wiser after the CONGU rollout meetings, but I would be interested in your thoughts at this stage.
I cant work out if it will be more or less work for M&H people. They are suggesting that the software will apply all changes at midnight, but surely a sense check of all cards is required prior to handicap alterations. There is hardly a comp goes by at our club where all computer entries are correct.
Interesting times ahead.

 

[duncan mackie]

Whilst I'm not Rulefan, my take is that the underlying role of handicap secretary is going to become even more about systems implementation and process management.
The move in recent years to the implementation of AR processes rather than review principles, and the same for ESRs and latterly enhanced upward movements, have already changed the direction in this manner.
There is no doubt that many clubs will have to change their current practices (outside just handicap roles), as well as some systems, in order for the basic principles you reference to work. It's easy to say that some clubs will have a lot more to do in this area than others.
The one thing that does jump out (to me) is that people are going to have to get used to the process of unwinding and redoing for input errors rather than rely on 100% of checking (or not) as currently. Big mindset change rather than a problem.

 

[rulefan]

From my short time on this site it is obvious that rulefan is the guy with his finger on the pulse.
I am currently on our M&H committee, and from November, when I retire, I will be the M&H chairman.
What are your gut feelings on the WHS changes, rulefan? I know we will be wiser after the CONGU rollout meetings, but I would be interested in your thoughts at this stage.
I cant work out if it will be more or less work for M&H people. They are suggesting that the software will apply all changes at midnight, but surely a sense check of all cards is required prior to handicap alterations. There is hardly a comp goes by at our club where all computer entries are correct.
Interesting times ahead.

I go along with Duncan's to some extent but if administrators do as much or as little as they do now, I don't think the effect will be traumatic.

However, from a players' and general perspective the things I really like are bogey rating/slope, removal of categories and the replacement of the ratchet by averaging. All of which seem to me to be more intuitive.

To your specific. I am not sure exactly when an entered competition score is considered to be 'submitted'. At midnight after entry or midnight after the competition has been closed? Perhaps Colin can help?

 

[rosecott]

Interesting extract from our ISV's report on the meeting:

"The unions will forbid the publication of any handicap indexes on web sites, other than their own. For example, clubs will not be allowed to provide a handicap list on a Club's own website. HandicapMaster will not be allowed to show handicap lists on Master Scoreboard, etc."

 

[rulefan]

Interesting extract from our ISV's report on the meeting:

"The unions will forbid the publication of any handicap indexes on web sites, other than their own. For example, clubs will not be allowed to provide a handicap list on a Club's own website.

I wonder if this will not apply to the Members' section of the club website pages.

Currently CONGU says :-
As a minimum the Specification requires that any licensed software must have the capability to:
5. Print the following when required, using the relevant specified format:
(d) A list of all current Playing Handicaps together with current Exact Handicaps.

 

[rosecott]

That may continue to apply but here's another extract:

"Player's WHS handicap Indexes would become the property and ownership of the national unions, not owned by the players themselves or their clubs."

 

[duncan mackie]

Interesting extract from our ISV's report on the meeting:

"The unions will forbid the publication of any handicap indexes on web sites, other than their own. For example, clubs will not be allowed to provide a handicap list on a Club's own website. HandicapMaster will not be allowed to show handicap lists on Master Scoreboard, etc."

I note with interest that this is an extract from a report of a meeting, rather than a statement.

Personally I suspect that the principle to be applied is that only the master records may be presented ie Any handicap index list presented by a clubs software will have to be pulled directly from the master list and not a separately maintained database. This is clearly a well intentioned and sensible principle - but may have significant implications to the underlying software functions, as well as some interesting aspects (of the top of my head running multi round handicap events over more than one day as an example; if the competition round has to call the master database, which is updated overnight.

In many ways this brings us neatly back to the beginning of the thread because such 'rules' are exactly what the software vendors require to be able to both build the systems and advise how long they will take....at which point you can never rule out compromise 🤗

 

[rulefan]

One ISV has advised :
However, the clubs' websites may provide links to the National Union website for the purpose of looking up handicap indexes.

And it is thought clubs will still be able to print lists for display

 

[duncan mackie]

One ISV has advised :
However, the clubs' websites may provide links to the National Union website for the purpose of looking up handicap indexes.

And it is thought clubs will still be able to print lists for display

It's certainly going to stir up some old records, as well as having a few other issues associated with it.

Interesting times ahead in that respect.

 

[rulefan]

It's certainly going to stir up some old records, as well as having a few other issues associated with it.

Interesting times ahead in that respect.

Why? A number of the ISVs don't have extras like HDID now. Only an approved few can access such info on the CDH.
I don't think anyone can see my handicap except those limited and members of mu club on the printed list on the noticeboard.

 

[duncan mackie]

Why? A number of the ISVs don't have extras like HDID now. Only an approved few can access such info on the CDH.
I don't think anyone can see my handicap except those limited and members of mu club on the printed list on the noticeboard.

Because, amazingly (not), there are a lot of discrepancies associated with memberships, and therefore handicap records.

Duplicated parallel databases tend to have masked the associated issues in the past - going forward that won't be possible and unless an individual's records are accurately tagged to each and every club they are a member of on the master database, flags will, correctly, be flying!

Please don't misunderstand my point - this is a good thing, and many of the historic issues will disappear (or morph) such as those with memberships under EGA and CONGU.

As to the specific point you make, that's also rather disappointing. At the very least every handicap sec should have view access to an individual's WHS club tags and data records.

 

[rulefan]

As to the specific point you make, that's also rather disappointing. At the very least every handicap sec should have view access to an individual's WHS club tags and data records.

That what I meant by "limited"

All handicap secs and organisers of competitions will already have access this information from the CDH. I don't see this changing. The National Association will provide secure access as they do now.
As I have access to the CDH I don't use HDID or MS, so don't know if members can view other players' handicaps or playing records.

Incidentally, I have a lot of experience in sorting out mismatches between systems and the data. I guess 60% or more of queries I get are in that category.

 

[duncan mackie]

That what I meant by "limited"

All handicap secs and organisers of competitions will already have access this information from the CDH. I don't see this changing. The National Association will provide secure access as they do now.
As I have access to the CDH I don't use HDID or MS, so don't know if members can view other players' handicaps or playing records.

Incidentally, I have a lot of experience in sorting out mismatches between systems and the data. I guess 60% or more of queries I get are in that category.

Currently within IG (for example) membership can see other members competition records, but not away scores or adjustments. For HDID it used to be a cost option for individuals to see their own records! No idea where that currently sits for such services; and it doesn't really matter.

're reading the bits above I'm starting to wonder if there will be any change to the current regarding, for example, EGA and CONGU memberships. The national database is sounding a little insular in this regard as well - if a member has an EGA handicap currently, and joins us as well in 2021, playing regularily all over the world, who is maintaining his master handicap record and associated index? Maybe I'm jumping ahead but we certainly have a number of such members (probably more than we actually know about!) and there is an underlying expectation that things will all magically come together. Personally I would settle for a more complete picture and a single handicap index 🤔