WHS doesn't work

[Backsticks]

If you cannot place and collect any due prize, you are not included. Competing but not eligible for prizes is a silly hybrid. If you cant win, you're not in.

 

[clubchamp98]

But almost exclusively only with other competitors of similar ability.

Exactly a handicap system that needs divisions is fundamentally flawed.

 

[Backsticks]

Absolutely.

Inclusion means playing. Not guaranteed prizes.

Its not inclusion either though. Its coming along as a passenger rather than really included.

 

[IanM]

Its not inclusion either though. Its coming along as a passenger rather than really included.

Not so sure... I played other sports. There was a development pathway in all of them! I never felt excluded, it set me a target

 

[wjemather]

No they don’t.
I can’t turn up at Anfield and expect a game.
Or any other Sport.

If Anfield was your local amateur football or cricket club in need of a player for their Sunday 4th XI, I'm certain you could.

 

[clubchamp98]

If Anfield was your local amateur football or cricket club in need of a player for their Sunday 4th XI, I'm certain you could.

I think after yesterdays preformance I might still get a game.

 

[Voyager EMH]

CONGU's mandate only applies to comps organised by affiliated unions, golf clubs, societies, etc. Independent groups are free to do whatever they wish with regards to handicapping and allowances.

Sweeping statement that is not entirely true with regard to "free to do".

"Unfair" handicapping that knowingly advantages some but not others is a financial fraud if there is organised collection and redistribution of money.

Not applying 95% allowance in a large group could be said to be unfairly advantaging the higher handicap players. I don't know of any test cases or legal challenges as yet.

 

[Slab]

I have absolutely no idea. In fact it may simply be that too many who play in it can’t be bothered working out 95%. That I spend time every time I play in the rollup advising my group on the %s that apply for fourball matchplay and individual stableford really irritates, with intelligent guys whinging about ‘how difficult it is’ and pleading confusion. It’s not difficult.

Bit off topic but... Saw a few posts mention working out or calculating 95% etc. Is this really a manual thing in UK?

I know out here we don't have many courses in comparison, but the national federation handicap app has a handicap calculator built in that lists every course, every set of tees for 18 holes and options for front 9 or back 9 (again off all tees) and lists the individuals course handicap and 95% playing handicap for each variable based on their current handicap index

You just open app, go to calculator, pick course/tees and number of holes and it lists both handicap at 100% & 95% values for that specific player. is this not a thing in UK?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Bit off topic but... Saw a few posts mention working out or calculating 95% etc. Is this really a manual thing in UK?

I know out here we don't have many courses in comparison, but the national federation handicap app has a handicap calculator built in that lists every course, every set of tees for 18 holes and options for front 9 or back 9 (again off all tees) and lists the individuals course handicap and 95% playing handicap for each variable based on their current handicap index

You just open app, go to calculator, pick course/tees and number of holes and it lists both handicap at 100% & 95% values for that specific player. is this not a thing in UK?

I believe there are a few such apps here in UK.
My experience of my home club is that since the launch of WHS the majority of players simply choose to ignore 95% at every opportunity to do so in social golf.
They don't like the idea of "losing a shot".
Some people are very slow to learn, adapt to changes or change their conceptions.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

Bit off topic but... Saw a few posts mention working out or calculating 95% etc. Is this really a manual thing in UK?

I know out here we don't have many courses in comparison, but the national federation handicap app has a handicap calculator built in that lists every course, every set of tees for 18 holes and options for front 9 or back 9 (again off all tees) and lists the individuals course handicap and 95% playing handicap for each variable based on their current handicap index

You just open app, go to calculator, pick course/tees and number of holes and it lists both handicap at 100% & 95% values for that specific player. is this not a thing in UK?

Some clubs have boards that will show the various handicap allowances. The MyEG app will show your 100% allowance. When playing a comp, at least at my club, the 95% is printed on the scorecard already. With the 2023 rules change, I don't think there is a requirement to state your PH on the card at all anymore....so people can just play, write down a number, and enter the card.

 

[doublebogey7]

I believe there are a few such apps here in UK.
My experience of my home club is that since the launch of WHS the majority of players simply choose to ignore 95% at every opportunity to do so in social golf.
They don't like the idea of "losing a shot".
Some people are very slow to learn, adapt to changes or change their conceptions.

The 95% playing handicap allowance is only a requirement in large field events. Now the rules don't define "large" but I don't think anybody would interpret it as anything less than 20.

 

[RichA]

The published comp start sheets at ours show player, HI, CH, PH.
Once the cards are in, somebody enters the scores on the computer which spits out the results.

 

[IanM]

My experience of my home club is that since the launch of WHS the majority of players simply choose to ignore 95% at every opportunity to do so in social golf.
They don't like the idea of "losing a shot".
Some people are very slow to learn, adapt to changes or change their conceptions.

Funny how different clubs can be, I've never come across this. (Ignoring the 95%, I mean. )

 

[Teebs]

Presumably once he submits his 1st 3 cards, his Index will simply be based on those anyway? That is what happened during transition to WHS, if players had no scores since Jan 2018. Be interesting what would be done if the player went from a 17.0 index, submitted 3rd card and it became 25.0. Does the Committee reduce it, or accept the player may be worse than he was 9 years ago?

I'm in the same situation and I have to start again with 3 cards for an initial WHS and then more cards to get a better picture of HC..

 

[Voyager EMH]

The 95% playing handicap allowance is only a requirement in large field events. Now the rules don't define "large" but I don't think anybody would interpret it as anything less than 20.

Many roll ups at my club over the year with more than 30 players.

 

[wjemather]

Sweeping statement that is not entirely true with regard to "free to do".

"Unfair" handicapping that knowingly advantages some but not others is a financial fraud if there is organised collection and redistribution of money.

Not applying 95% allowance in a large group could be said to be unfairly advantaging the higher handicap players. I don't know of any test cases or legal challenges as yet.

Of course it is. They can use whatever handicap system they choose - as agreed by the group with any new members agreeing to it. It has always been this way.

The USGA, CONGU, Golf Australia, etc. - all their legacy handicap systems flavoured low handicappers by design. The implication of what you are now saying, is that competition organisers using those systems were being fraudulent.

 

[rosecott]

I have a member who has just re-joined having left the club 9 years ago and not joined another club since then. During the process of setting him up on WHS, I was prompted to consider possible matches, one of which matched with his CDH from 9 years ago and asked if I wanted this to merge with his new record. I accepted this and he was awarded his new Handicap Index of 17.0 which was his UHS handicap from 9 years ago - no need for submission of 3 cards.

So WHS has a lot of historical data if Handicap Committees do the simple searches which WHS offers.
.

Presumably once he submits his 1st 3 cards, his Index will simply be based on those anyway? That is what happened during transition to WHS, if players had no scores since Jan 2018. Be interesting what would be done if the player went from a 17.0 index, submitted 3rd card and it became 25.0. Does the Committee reduce it, or accept the player may be worse than he was 9 years ago?

I'm in the same situation and I have to start again with 3 cards for an initial WHS and then more cards to get a better picture of HC..

An update.

On the player's first outing with his resurrected handicap, he registered a score differential of 14.6 and was promptly reduced to 12.6 HI. He has since submitted a General Play differential of 21.7.

As far as I can see, WHS does work.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Of course it is. They can use whatever handicap system they choose - as agreed by the group with any new members agreeing to it. It has always been this way.

The USGA, CONGU, Golf Australia, etc. - all their legacy handicap systems flavoured low handicappers by design. The implication of what you are now saying, is that competition organisers using those systems were being fraudulent.

Please do not put words into my mouth by way of, "what you are saying is".
We have rules of handicapping provided to us.
Deliberately circumventing those rules to advantage some with redistribution of money is risking fraudulent activity.
Agreeing to join a group without the full knowledge and understanding of the misconduct that is occurring is not agreeing to be a victim of that misconduct. This has always been the way.

 

[Swango1980]

An update.

On the player's first outing with his resurrected handicap, he registered a score differential of 14.6 and was promptly reduced to 12.6 HI. He has since submitted a General Play differential of 21.7.

As far as I can see, WHS does work.

Indeed

What I was simply saying was that, in your players case, they were given an Index of 17.0, as WHS found their old handicap. However, that is simply a placeholder. Sure, there is no need for submitting 3 cards, as their initial index is 17.0, with no scores on their record. However, once 3 scores are submitted, their WHS Index will be exactly as it would have been if they just handed in 3 cards anyway. So, if this chap, who starts with a 17.0 Index then hands in his first 3 cards, Score Diff 25.0, 28.0 and 30.0 (for example), his Index would be 23.0. The 17.0 becomes irrelevant

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Funny how different clubs can be, I've never come across this. (Ignoring the 95%, I mean. )

Neither had I…until Saturday when I discovered that the rollup comp I‘ve played in for years might be PH = CH.

ETA - I have raised with one of the rollup organisers that for as long as…I have been playing and calculating for others their PH as 95% of CH in accordance with club guidelines. It might for only be a shot for 10-28 CHs, but that’s not the point. In any case I will ask the question next week.