WHS doesn't work

[Imurg]

(Not that I agree with him - I don't - but) Dean Knuth would tell you they have.

Just a thought - given Course Ratings are measured and pars are arbitrarily assigned, why is no-one complaining that the pars are wrong?

But they're not..not really.
There are guidelines for determining par, I forget what they are but you wouldn't see a 400 yard par 3 or a 300 yard par 5

 

[Swango1980]

A player with an Index of 0.0 has a CH of (0 + (CR-par)). If CR = 69 and par = 72 what makes it easier? If CR = 69 and par = 67 what makes it harder?

I appreciate you have a severe blind spot in your thinking, but I'll try anyway.

If CR was 69, 3 lower than a Par of 72, the course plays easier than the Par suggests. Therefore, a player with an Index of 0.0 gets a course handicap of -3.0.

If Par was 67, and CR 69. the course plays 2 shots harder than Par. The 0.0 Indexer plays off 2.0

The Par 72 course might have a lot of short holes, several scoreable par 5's, and therefore the handicap is lower. The scratch golfer should be thinking it is a course they can shoot under par.

The Par 67 course may have no real scoring par 5 opportunities, long par 4's / long par 3's. Very tricky for the scratch golfer to shoot level par, as such their handicap is 2.

 

[bobmac]

But they're not..not really.
There are guidelines for determining par, I forget what they are but you wouldn't see a 400 yard par 3 or a 300 yard par 5

I remember being being told in the '70s that any hole up to 250 was a par 3, 251-470 a par 4 and above that a par 5. Don't quote me though

 

[rulefan]

See, again, Course Pars are not arbitrary. They can sometimes be subjective, but they are not arbitrary.

As far as I am aware, arbitrary is defined as random or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. I've never played a 100 yard par 5, or a 600 yard par 3. Have you? Par is set by people using logic and reason. Hopefully people you'd generally have a bit of respect for, and know what they are doing.

The length allocation for par has varied around the world for years. In my time CONGU has changed the recommendation at least once. Do you know of any courses which have changed pars form CONGU to WHS values?
Some years ago a local club increased the par of a few (white) holes that were a couple of yards short of the new CONGU figures so that the course par was over 72. The idea was to attract more visitors (although they would use the yellows anyway). Was the course any more or less difficult?

 

[IanM]

Was the course any more or less difficult?

If playing STABLEFORD the "par" written on the card makes a significant difference to the number of points you get.... (if not the diff!) But, there you go, hope that is clear enough. Don't tell me, the Rules Boffins don't accept Stableford as proper golf.. Of course, I am sorry. I'll go and stand in the corner.

 

[Swango1980]

The length allocation for par has varied around the world for years. In my time CONGU has changed the recommendation at least one. Do you know of any courses which have changed pars form CONGU to WHS values?
Some years ago a local club increased the par of a few (white) holes that were a couple of yards short of the new CONGU figures so that the course par was over 72. The idea was to attract more visitors (although they would use the yellows anyway). Was the course any more or less difficult?

I'm sure guidelines for Par have changed, as technology has allowed players to hit the ball further being one important thing to consider.

Look, time and time again, if you cannot see that a 250 yard hole would be considered DIFFICULT if it was a Par 3, but EASY if it was a Par 4, then there is no point in continuing the conversation. Should I just try and find new ways to say the same thing?

I also am fully aware that if a player plays a Par 72 course or a Par 69 course, there is zero indication of how difficult it is either. You seem fixated in focusing on JUST par to try and make your point. Whereas I am saying both CR AND Par need to be considered together. I have zero issues with CR, it is a crucial and essential part of the handicap system.

For me, all CR tells us is how many shots a scratch player should be expected to go round a course. It tells us absolutely nothing about difficulty. You could have a very high CR, but essentially be playing in a very long open course, with no trees, bunkers, penalty areas. Just a very very big open field. Easy golf, just a slog to get around. Or, you could be playing a much shorter course with lots of trees, penalty areas, heavy rough, etc and a lower CR.

But, please tell me. Are you saying if the CR on Course A is 72, and the CR of Course B is 71, is Course A harder?

 

[wjemather]

But they're not..not really.
There are guidelines for determining par, I forget what they are but you wouldn't see a 400 yard par 3 or a 300 yard par 5

Interestingly, there is at least one 400 yard par 3.

There is no way of knowing the par of a hole by yardage alone. Even with all information about the hole to hand it would still be impossible to be certain of the par.

The guidelines have ranges that significantly overlap. Assignment of par in these cases is almost always arbitrary, and very few courses do not have at least one such hole.

 

[Swango1980]

If playing STABLEFORD the "par" written on the card makes a significant difference to the number of points you get.... (if not the diff!) But, there you go, hope that is clear enough. Don't tell me, the Rules Boffins don't accept Stableford as proper golf.. Of course, I am sorry. I'll go and stand in the corner.

They must do. After all, the handicap authorities even consider Texas Scramble as proper golf now

 

[Swango1980]

Interestingly, there is at least one 400 yard par 3.

There is no way of knowing the par of a hole by yardage alone. Even with all information about the hole to hand it would still be impossible to be certain of the par.

The guidelines have ranges that significantly overlap. Assignment of par in these cases is almost always arbitrary, and very few courses do not have at least one such hole.

There you go again, poor grasp of the word arbitrary, but I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point

 

[Imurg]

Interestingly, there is at least one 400 yard par 3.

There is no way of knowing the par of a hole by yardage alone. Even with all information about the hole to hand it would still be impossible to be certain of the par.

The guidelines have ranges that significantly overlap. Assignment of par in these cases is almost always arbitrary, and very few courses do not have at least one such hole.

And that's real golf is it..?
6 goes at it...19th hole....
It's as exhibition as LIV........

 

[IanM]

They must do. After all, the handicap authorities even consider Texas Scramble as proper golf now

That's nothing. You're expected to put a card in from Tiger Woods Golf too

 

[bobmac]

There is no way of knowing the par of a hole by yardage alone. Even with all information about the hole to hand it would still be impossible to be certain of the par.

Now you're just trolling.

 

[wjemather]

There you go again, poor grasp of the word arbitrary, but I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point

Nope. Arbitrary is semantically correct.

 

[wjemather]

Now you're just trolling.

Ok, you don't believe me? Tell us the par of a level, wide-open, straight 485 yard hole with no obstacles and a large flat green.

 

[Backsticks]

See, again, Course Pars are not arbitrary. They can sometimes be subjective, but they are not arbitrary.

As far as I am aware, arbitrary is defined as random or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. I've never played a 100 yard par 5, or a 600 yard par 3. Have you? Par is set by people using logic and reason. Hopefully people you'd generally have a bit of respect for, and know what they are doing.

No, par is arbitrarily assigned, as they are derived from arbitrarily set distances for pars. And are a very coarse measure.

 

[Swango1980]

Nope. Arbitrary is semantically correct.

Ok then. Maybe you are right. After all, the people at our course decided they randomly wanted 3 par 5's, 4 par 3's and the rest par 4's. They randomly drew these out of a hat, and assigned them to each hole in turn. It is so odd, because our longest par 5 is 300 yards and shortest 120 yards, whilst we have a 490 yard par 3.

Ohh, hang on, I might be mistaken. I think this was a dream I was having, must have been influenced by some odd comments I read somewhere about par simply being arbitrary

As far as I am aware, the designers of the course / club committee must have used some logical thought process in determining the pars in each hole.

Occasionally I hear the commentators on pro golf discussing a particular hole that has been changed to a par 4 for the professionals, even though it is a par 5 for the members. They often use words like "difficult" , "tricky" and "challenging" as to why there was a logic to this change. Of course, CR doesn't change, nor should it.

 

[bobmac]

Ok, you don't believe me? Tell us the par of a level, wide-open, straight 485 yard hole with no obstacles and a large flat green.

It could be a 4 or 5.
Your turn.
Tell us the par of a level, wide-open, straight 385 yard hole with no obstacles and a large flat green.

 

[Swango1980]

Ok, you don't believe me? Tell us the par of a level, wide-open, straight 485 yard hole with no obstacles and a large flat green.

My Hand is up, can I answer Sir?

It could either be a Par 4 or a Par 5.

If it is a Par 4, it'll probably be really tough. I might even be worried I could struggle to get my nett double bogey, let alone par.

If it is a Par 5, it'll probably be easy. I'd be disappointed if I don't get my nett double bogey

Either way, it'll have the same impact on CR, which it should.

 

[bobmac]

Occasionally I hear the commentators on pro golf discussing a particular hole that has been changed to a par 4 for the professionals, even though it is a par 5 for the members. They often use words like "difficult" , "tricky" and "challenging" as to why there was a logic to this change. Of course, CR doesn't change, nor should it.

Totally agree, whether it says par 4 or 5 for them means nothing

 

[wjemather]

See, again, Course Pars are not arbitrary. They can sometimes be subjective, but they are not arbitrary.

As far as I am aware, arbitrary is defined as random or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. I've never played a 100 yard par 5, or a 600 yard par 3. Have you? Par is set by people using logic and reason. Hopefully people you'd generally have a bit of respect for, and know what they are doing.

I've played plenty of courses where pars have been set to up the overall par of the course so it isn't "too low". For example, one facility near Bristol has a couple of downhill par 5s that are well under 400 yards from the back tees!!