Who's Achievement is greater Lyle or Monty?

[The23rdman]

So does this make Paul Lawrie better than Monty then? After all he won a Major. John Daly won two, does that make him better?

No, it doesn't, but I'm not making my choice based purely on major victories. Lyle won 27 titles around the world including several in the US.

In no way am I saying Monty's achievements are not awesome becasue they clearly are. I simply believe Lyle proved he could win anywhere AND get the job done in the heat of a major championship.

 

[thecraw]

We will never know for sure but I think Alexander Walter Barr Lyle would have been made of sterner stuff!

Not at the same age or stage in his career he bloody wasn't!

We are debating achievements here not parallel careers.

 

[toonarmy]

Lyle:

Majors - 2 wins, 2 top 10s in 33 years
EOoM - 3 (79,80,85)
PGA Tour - 4
Euro Tour - 15
Other - 5
Ryder Cup - 8pts

Montgomerie:

Majors - 5 runner-ups, 5 top 10s in 17 years
EOoM - 8 (93,94,95,96,97,98,99,05)
PGA Tour - 0
Euro Tour - 31
Other - 9
Ryder Cup - 23.5pts

Does this change anyone's view? Or will the Monty-hating go on?

 

[thecraw]

Who hates Monty????

 

[toonarmy]

Who hates Monty????

Well there have been a few views expressed on this that suggest he is not flavour-of-the-month (and apparently a cheat )

Not saying you are a Monty hater. I do find it odd that such a fine golfer has so few supporters in here. I mean, given all the sweaties we have on here, he is at least actually Scottish unlike Mr Lyle!

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Monty-lover but I will defend his record. For me, the Ryder Cup is the highest level of golf there is and he excels there. If you look at the quality of golf played over those three days, it wipes the floor with just about all Majors. And people talk of Monty choking, yet he is on the cusp of surpassing Faldo's record points haul in the most pressurised golf there is.

I just don't get it.

Anyhoo, as I appear to be the only one wanting to stick up for the old curmudgeon, I'll let this one go!

 

[stevelockie]

I like Monty, he will always have a special place in my heart due to his Ryder Cup exploits. I will never forget him holing the winning putt in the States. I was the only person in the pub watching, sitting in front of a huge TV screen, feeling a bit "refreshed" with tears in my eyes.

No-one would love Monty to win a major more than me, but unfortunately I think his time is by!

 

[birdieman]

...4 time winner on US tour apart from the 2 majors(the real tour Monty!)End of.

Sorry, but so, so wrong.

What makes the US Tour the 'real' tour? Is it the identikit courses, target golf approach or putting bonanzas, all in benign conditions that makes it 'real'?

Sorry, but I get really ticked off when people assume the PGA Tour is in some way superior to the European Tour.

You don't have to like Monty to appreciate what he has achieved and why is he a 'cheat'?

Cheat - Indonesian Open 3 years ago 'Jakartagate'- rain delay, Monty comes back to have a rather better lie than when he left - still rankles with a lot of his contemporaries on the European Tour that he was let off for this cheating. This link will inform you better
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/golf/monty-under-a-cloud-as-jakartagate-unrest-grows-492429.html

The PGA tour is superior, if you want to go up against the best week in week out you go there, simple as. Young ambitious players head there -Garcia, Scott, Harrington others like Monty, Jimenez stay on the European Tour. Nothing wrong with that but citing order of merits as some kind of achievement when 17 of the worlds top 20 were playing elsewhere means what exactly?
As a non-American you might not like that but that's the way it is. Professional sport is driven by money and the PGA tour offers more money so there is a stronger field over there. Winning the Madeira Open or the Russian Open does not compare with winning any US tour event except perhaps the ones going on concurrently with WGC or Major events.
For your information this myth that the US courses are all the same is daft, yes they have 18 holes like everywhere else but comparing Pebble beach, Muirfield village, PGA west, Sawgrass etc as being the same is nonsense, the courses are miles tougher than most of the European Tour ones. The only time the European Tour plays on links courses is for the Open and the Dunhill links. What are these so different, difficult, non-benign tracks in Europe you refer to?

Monty is a very good golfer but history will not record him as being great.

 

[thecraw]

Who hates Monty????

Well there have been a few views expressed on this that suggest he is not flavour-of-the-month (and apparently a cheat )

Not saying you are a Monty hater. I do find it odd that such a fine golfer has so few supporters in here. I mean, given all the sweaties we have on here, he is at least actually Scottish unlike Mr Lyle!

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Monty-lover but I will defend his record. For me, the Ryder Cup is the highest level of golf there is and he excels there. If you look at the quality of golf played over those three days, it wipes the floor with just about all Majors. And people talk of Monty choking, yet he is on the cusp of surpassing Faldo's record points haul in the most pressurised golf there is.

I just don't get it.

Anyhoo, as I appear to be the only one wanting to stick up for the old curmudgeon, I'll let this one go!

So on that bit highlighted in bold Tiger Woods is a failure compared to Monty given his woeful Ryder Cup record????

(OK, just playing Devils Advocate!!!!!!! )

 

[Dodger]

I can't believe this question is even being asked, Lyle is a champion and a gentleman, first British winner of the Masters, Open champ and 4 time winner on US tour apart from the 2 majors(the real tour Monty!) .
Meanwhile Monty is an ill-mannered cheat nearly won a Major and has never won a US tour event.
End of.

Give me a resaon for that quote please.....?

 

[birdieman]

Dodger, 3 posts up for the cheat bit, you can't deny he's ill-mannered can you?

 

[toonarmy]

So...Tiger Woods is a failure compared to Monty given his woeful Ryder Cup record????

(OK, just playing Devils Advocate!!!!!!! )

Nice

Obviously not but I know who I think is the better sportsperson! Woods is clearly not interested in the Ryder Cup (regardless of his feeble protestations to the contrary) as it's not all about him and personal glory. And it is precisely because of those reasons that Monty plays so well in it and that for me makes him a better guy.

Don't get me wrong, there's lots to be said for those sportspeople who are singularly focused and are only driven by their own achievements. But I'm a big team man and I know who I'd want in the trenches with me and who I'd want to send off on a sniper gig.

Come on, who would you rather have a drink with?

 

[toonarmy]

Young ambitious players head there -Garcia, Scott, Harrington others like Monty, Jimenez stay on the European Tour. Professional sport is driven by money and the PGA tour offers more money so there is a stronger field over there. the courses are miles tougher than most of the European Tour ones. What are these so different, difficult, non-benign tracks in Europe you refer to?

For 'young ambitious' you could just as easily read 'young greedy' as you clearly state it's where the money's at.

The average winning score on the PGA Tour is lower than the average winning score on the European Tour and it's not the courses that are necessarily harder but the playing conditions are.

PGA Tour is richer, not better.

...can this thread get even further off topic?

 

[birdieman]

For 'young ambitious' you could just as easily read 'young greedy' as you clearly state it's where the money's at.

The average winning score on the PGA Tour is lower than the average winning score on the European Tour and it's not the courses that are necessarily harder but the playing conditions are.

fair points toon but I would contend the winning score is lower over there because the players are better not because the weather's better.

Your point about money is like saying formula 3 is as good as formula 1 in motor racing despite having less money attached to it, which it isn't!

More money is because of more people attending and more people watching and paying for tv and more advertising. The US Tour didn't become bigger by accident it was because the best players from US and elsewhere i.e Nicklaus, Trevino, Player, Palmer, Miller etc playeed there. They were the best golfers of their time. For a few years Seve was the only European golfer worth a damn and the European Tour grew on the back of him and him alone. It is a great tour but it doesn't have as many good players by a long shot as the US tour, hence the US PGA tour remains better as well as richer.

Right I'm off to hit some golf balls in the inclement Scottish weather!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I have to go with Lyle for the fact that he has majors in the bag which despite someone saying is just 4 days play, is the ultimate test of nerve in golf and one in which Monty has been found wanting in.

I salute Monty for his longevity and consistency but Lyle had greater and more peers to battle with every week and the fact that he also went to the US and beat the top Americans on their own patch seals it for me

 

[madandra]

My ar5e is sore cos I am sitting on the fence with this one.
Monty's tally is impressive but Lyle had MORE quality players to beat to get his majors. Mowadays if Tiger blows cold ANYONE can win.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Toonarmy,

Got to take exception to the Ryder cup being the highest level of golf. It is a team event and therefore a poor performance can be complimented by the other guy playing well. I'll give you that the singles is a highly charged atmosphere but even then you can have a bad hole and it doesn't affect the card.

In my opinion the final day of any major is the highest level where it is you and you alone that dictates whether you will win or not. As we saw with Monty at the US Open pressure plays a huge part and sadly that is where Monty came up short - he couldn't handle it.

I don't hate Monty and he is definitely one of my 5 favourite European golfers of the last 10 years and I don't think anyone will perform to the same levels of excellence over such a long period and win so many consecutive order of merits.

The bottom line is golfers are judged on majors and Lyle managed to win and Monty hasn't

 

[stevelockie]

I wouldn't agree with the point that the PGA tour is better than the European Tour. I've been watching loads of PGA Tour on Setanta. It's pretty boring when the top guys don't play, random winners abound (same as Euro Tour). The good courses and good weather is a big factor, big drive, wedge/spin, putt for each hole. Guys on the Euro Tour are better at dealing with different course and weather conditions (courses in India, Dubai etc).

The first comps of the PGA Tour season are in Hawiai. The wind was blowing and a lot of the players were really struggling. You wouldn't see that on the Euro Tour.

 

[RGuk]

So does this make Paul Lawrie better than Monty then? After all he won a Major. John Daly won two, does that make him better?

OOhh, that's a good call. Hard to bosh that delivery to the boundary....

 

[Nico]

I have to agree with the comment Monty better/Lyle greater.

Nailed it!

By the way,dont diss the big fella he is a thoroughly nice man.

Through my partners hobby we became pals with someone who worked closely with M through IMG. She would not have a word said against him,called him the nicest,most patient guy you could meet.....however when it came to his missus the air turned blue!!!

 

[toonarmy]

As we saw with Monty at the US Open pressure plays a huge part and sadly that is where Monty came up short - he couldn't handle it.

Agree with some of your points Homer, but not this one. Monty had a massive wait on the 18th fairway and assumed that with the wait, adrenalin would take hold and consequently switched from 6i to 7i. Ended up short and left.

Unfortunately for him, by the time he actually got round to hitting the ball, the adrenalin had gone. Admittedly after that disappointment, it appears his head went a bit and proceeded to balls up the rest!

However, look at Rocca in the Open. He expended so much emotional energy in holing that putt out of the Valley of Sin that he had nothing left for play-off which Daly won comfortably.

You know, that John Daly who is the greater golfer with his 2 Majors...