Who wants to cure their slice?

[bobmac]

Realgolfer. You are obviously a man of many talents.You can bend it like whatshisname in both directions. Where do you aim?lol
If I had a student who was in to out I would ask him lots of questions.
eg.
Handicap
How good do you want to be
How often do you practice
Do you always push or how often do you snap hook
do you have a strong grip
and lastly do you want the quick fix or a proper cure
I would then base the lesson on his answers.
It doesnt matter what goes on in the swing as long as the club is travelling straight at impact and the clubface is straight at impact.
If that doesn't make much sense, here's an example.
If the answers were
Handicap 15
Wants to be off 9
Dont practice much
Always hit a push
Neutral grip
Wants a quick fix
If his grip is neutral, he shouldn't hook too often
If he aims straight and hits everything 15 yds right,
the quick fix is to aim everything 15 yds left.
That way he wouldn't have to practice a whole new swing path, elbow position at impact or weight transfer.
He could keep the swing he knows and with little practice aim left and hit more fairways
If he was off 6, wants to be scratch, loves practicing, strong grip wants to do it properly, the lesson would be completely different
You see everyones different and its up to the pro to give the player what he wants
Does that make sence?

 

[RGuk]

Realgolfer. You are obviously a man of many talents. You can bend it like whatshisname in both directions. Where do you aim? lol

Very kind of you to reply. I'm a man of one talent at the moment. I aim down the middle and expect any variety of shot!!
t.b.h. I play for a fade with fairway woods, so yes, I aim a little left.
I was interested because my very first lesson after years out was when my pro felt it was too flat and too inside to hit anything but pushes and hooks (with the odd one where the path and face were in balance).
I improved this with some drills to set the club more upright and for a short time played very solidly. However, I started sending the hands away from the body on the first movement and have been working lately on the first bit from address to 9 o'clock. It's coming on. I'm not after free help or advice specifically for me, but was intrigued about the player that consistently is stuck in the pushing/drawing/hooking rut.

In the past when this has happened, I'd just hit 100 balls the day before a match, trying to hit a tree say 10-20 degrees left of target....i.e. a pull.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[bobmac]

Realgolfer. You are obviously a man of many talents. You can bend it like whatshisname in both directions. Where do you aim? lol

Very kind of you to reply. I'm a man of one talent at the moment. I aim down the middle and expect any variety of shot!!
t.b.h. I play for a fade with fairway woods, so yes, I aim a little left.
I was interested because my very first lesson after years out was when my pro felt it was too flat and too inside to hit anything but pushes and hooks (with the odd one where the path and face were in balance).
I improved this with some drills to set the club more upright and for a short time played very solidly. However, I started sending the hands away from the body on the first movement and have been working lately on the first bit from address to 9 o'clock. It's coming on. I'm not after free help or advice specifically for me, but was intrigued about the player that consistently is stuck in the pushing/drawing/hooking rut.

In the past when this has happened, I'd just hit 100 balls the day before a match, trying to hit a tree say 10-20 degrees left of target....i.e. a pull.

Thanks for your reply.

Your welcome Dave.
Why not stick a video of your swing filmed down the line on you tube and I'll take a look

 

[RGuk]

Your welcome Dave.
Why not stick a video of your swing filmed down the line on you tube and I'll take a look

Yes, it is in the pipeline. You posted a thread about "do you video?" and I didn't join in at the time. I DO in fact video my swing quite often, and use previous experience to identify previous flaws.

In essence, the things I look for are;
1) right knee.....I always play better when the flex remains..
2) lateral head movement.....sometimes I forget for weeks to think about my head, at it's worst, it was moving miles to the right..
3) Position at impact.....

These are best/easiest seen side-on. As an avid reader of books on golf (particularly Leadbetter/Faldo) and sitting "in" on lessons many years ago (I helped my first pro out carrying a massive camera/collecting balls etc.!!)
I look at pictures with a keen, although admittedly amatuer eye.

I will be posting once I find consistency....you bet!....certainly some good things are already evident on my videos, I'll try to find some pictures that show what I'm trying for.

I KNOW it will work eventually; I am heartened (oddly enough) that the ball goes one of 5 shapes. If I hit 15 yards pushes and pulls with a long club.....this could see me on the green with 6-PW....

let me find some good photos....

 

[RGuk]

OK.....so here is Paul.....(not me!!)

The hands are seen in the black circle, that's what I'm looking for.

Paul's club is set on his plane, I'm after something a tad more upright (orange)(for now) as an antidote to a yucky 35-40 degree "flat" set.

As long as I can draw a line just "inside" the ball (purple)
then I'm also pleased.

It all sounds rather technical....but actually it's just 2 drills.....and considerable patience.

 

[CarpeDiem]

Those trees look close

 

[RGuk]

Those trees look close

Could explain Lawrie's love of "not the fairway"

 

[davidmac00]

Bob,

When you teach your pupils to swing from inside using the famed NMS do they suffer a high number of shanks?

Slicers,

A slice is caused by ONLY one thing, an open clubface when the ball leaves the face! The "out to in" swingpath is just a compensation for the open face. Fix the face first!

David McCallum.

 

[RGuk]

Good first post! Welcome...

You could fix the face first, I got this sorted the other day and missed 14 greens left.....(about 5 yards off)

Two practice buckets later working "solely" on in-out and hit 9 greens and 13/14 fairways......

Hardly the same result.....

 

[davidmac00]

RGuk (Dave?),

If you had a slice (open face) and worked "solely" on swinging from "in to out" you would have 2 new shots, a push slice and a shank to deal with.

Fix the clubface first and deal with a pull until your body instinctively reacts and rearranges accordingly. In my experience that takes less than 20 balls to happen.

If however, your body doesnt instinctively change the path to suit the face, just make sure the right shoulder goes more downward at start of downswing.

David McCallum.

 

[RGuk]

Can I disagree, a bit?

Obviously, If you are leaving the face open more than a few degrees, then you're going to hit nasty shots regardless of path. Before I quit playing for a long time, I was a push/draw/hook player. Interestingly, the shots that went the best (good, wholesome draws landing on target) were measured on a computer and the results were quite surprising. My "average" good shots were around 3-4 degrees from the inside and 1-2 degrees open on the face. Under these conditions, the face is closed in relation to the path and therefore a small amount of anti-clockwise (draw) spin is effective on the shot.

2 degrees open and 2 degrees from the outside would probably see you miss the fairway.....a slice....for sure.

As for shanks.....you've lost me......

I'm not arguing for the sake of an argument, I want to know everyone's theories!!

As for fixing anything with 20 balls, I reckon you must have far more talent to change things than I will ever have.

Back in 1996 (off 14, maybe 16) I was due to play in the Birmingham Alliance Comp at Pype Hayes. I'd been slicing and pulling for weeks and went to see my pro. He recommended filling 2 buckets of ball (200) and trying to hit (start) every last one at a tree on the right side of the range. I ended up practising for 4-5 hours and hit over 300.

Next day, I hit solid draws for the first 15 holes and walked off with a gross 76. I repaid my pro with a 1/2 case of wine.

Following on from this "epiphany" I decided there and then to continue encouraging an in-out for months. I got down to 8.4 and won all sorts of stuff....medals, stablefords at my club.

If my theory is not correct, I want to know why? I'm happy to be wrong, but my experience tells me that if I work on my path first, the face will adjust itself, in time.

 

[TonyN]

Must also disagree on the face arguement. Even if the face is square, anything moving across an object is going to put side spin on it.

A square face is vital, but equally so, the path is too.

I dont claim to be an expert on this but as I understand it, i think it is very simple. (I may be wrong)

 

[RGuk]

I'm glad you've chipped in Tony.

Let's take your game as an example. These days, you hit more draws or straight than anything, yes? Do you slice? (almost never, like me) do you hook? (yes occasionally, like me) but when everything is "in balance" (face angle and path) you hit a predictable shape.

I totally understand where Dave is coming from, of course, a slice (a real slice) is easiest fixed (to a degree) by getting the face square. But that's only half the fix. If, like me the other day, you start to get the face square or a degree or two closed, this coupled with a path that is left of target, is going to lead to a whole round of pulls.

I haven't hit an out and out beginners slice in ages...I'm not saying this to prove something about my game, BUT if, like me, folks are mainly hitting a bit out-in most of the time, a square face is eventually going to give you a bag of pulled shots EVERY TIME; until you start sorting the path, with the infamous 3-ball drill or whatever works for you, that's a far as you can go.

The only "physics" way to hit a draw is a few degrees from the inside with the face a degree or two closed TO THAT PATH. This COULD mean still having the face open. Think Woosnam or Els (c.1994) and EVERY SHOT (Drives) (more or less) started right and turned over, if the face was perfectly square, the ball would start too straight and hook.....If I'm wrong in this, I'm going back to school......

It's a shame we can't "bounce" this thread over to the lounge, I'd love to hear from the rest of the forum, even if I get comprehensively put in my place.

 

[TonyN]

Yes Dave, correct, more right to left than anything. I still fade occasionally but I almost never slice. Why? Because of my path. If the face is open a degree or two, because of my in to out, it would almost always result in a slight push instead of a slice.

If I play to fade, I take to club a way on the inside more and give it beans on the way down, this always destroys my path and has me attacking from the out to in!

 

[davidmac00]

Ok RGuk,

yes, with regard to hitting a draw, face slightly open to target, but fractionally closed in relation to "in to out" path is correct and im happy to hear golfers that understand this.

Im not here for an arguement, so ill explain myself and my reasons.

Im a teaching pro (P.G.A) with over 15,000 lessons experience and most of the lessons I have given have been to beginners/ slicers. Im not saying all slicers are beginners, merely that most golfers who seek help slice!

I just get upset hearing pros on the lesson tee or in mags/ books say swing from inside to fix your slice. I have watched loads of pros do this and seen the weak chip fades and shanks that result and then heard the faithful teaching phrase, it gets worse before it gets better, youve got to work at it!!!!

Sorry, but it doesnt have to!

In my experience when a pupil slices the ball and I fix the face they start to hit pulls, as you said yourself RGuk.

For a slicer hitting weak bending slices to start hitting powerful purely struck, straight (if slightly) pulled shots is a huge improvement and it takes minutes, not days.

Now, obviously you can just work on changing the path and suffer for hours until somehow you find the feel for the sweetspot and start to get straight shots, but you must have fixed the face in doing this or the ball would still be going right(for right handers).

Sorry for the rant, but I hope you understand where im coming from.

David McCallum.
P.S. I dont work in the UK, so im not here to drum up business.

 

[Cernunnos]

Bobmac, was avoiding even lookig at this thread, as Slice is a rude word for me. I used to have intimate knowledge of the right hand side rough & right hand side treeline & had perfected the low punched 6 iron shot to recover some dignity from the tree line.

I still hit the occasional one over the right if I come through open or cut across the ball. Something I'm apt to do after not hitting a ball for a while. Old habits die hard & all.

It took many, many.... many lessons to get anywhere near promoting consistant straight or draw.

The only thing I really miss about the fade I used to have is I could get the ball to land soft & stop on parr3 greens without too much real effort...

Oh & I was very familiar with that low left leaking pull shot. I'd rather have a bannana-man slice than that low weak pull.

Address is the key in my book, as if you send something right, the initial reaction is to open the stance thinking you are aiming left, which only means one thing, a ball even forther into the Jungle & yet more commando golf. Once stance & address (Not just feet, but body) & posture are drilled in, then there is a firm base for the pro to address other issues, or at least start to.

I must say If I have one thought at setup now its... "Close up that damn shoulder, & feel the width" before I take any swing. If i forget to do that one I'll generally start to suffer from a bit of fade.

Another thing I think helps me at least, is instead of looking at the flag or the fairway when I've got driver in hand, I instead pick out a point on the horizon. A big tree or house, or something in the far distance & then let go. Allways been less likely to visit to much of the right side when I've done that even when I was suffering with it bad.

 

[RGuk]

Im a teaching pro (P.G.A) with over 15,000 lessons experience and most of the lessons I have given have been to beginners/ slicers. Im not saying all slicers are beginners, merely that most golfers who seek help slice!

I just get upset hearing pros on the lesson tee or in mags/ books say swing from inside to fix your slice. I have watched loads of pros do this and seen the weak chip fades and shanks that result and then heard the faithful teaching phrase, it gets worse before it gets better, youve got to work at it!!!!

Sorry, but it doesnt have to!

In my experience when a pupil slices the ball and I fix the face they start to hit pulls, as you said yourself RGuk.

For a slicer hitting weak bending slices to start hitting powerful purely struck, straight (if slightly) pulled shots is a huge improvement and it takes minutes, not days.

Now, obviously you can just work on changing the path and suffer for hours until somehow you find the feel for the sweetspot and start to get straight shots, but you must have fixed the face in doing this or the ball would still be going right(for right handers).

BRILLIANT....I LOVE IT, quality post. Indeed, I turned my fades into pulls almost overnight.....now I'm up for the golden goose!!

I hit shots from another era on Saturday (5 yards draws) off many tees and am overjoyed at my "potential" now to play to may h'cap or better. I couldn't have done this purely by fixing the face. But agreed, path and face, and I'm on the right tracks....

I guess I misjudged "where" you were coming from on this. You were talking about out and out slicers and I was talking about my standard player who needs to consider both....

Sadly, although my drives and fairways were spot on, I still pulled no less than 6 short irons on my way to a gross 81. 4 of those cost me a par.....so if I'd managed 6 more GIR, I could have played to 77.....golf....arghh.....

77 would have been heaven......considering I can't reach 4/18 holes......and take bogey (or worse) every time.

 

[Cernunnos]

Unfortunatly I had a 5 yard draw last week on the first a parr3 & ended up rolling off the bank to the left of the green level with the flag straight into Jaques Custau land.

The next I aimed 5 yards right & landed 3 yards right of the pin in the rough... Go figure. (Yeah I know I could have taken a drop, for my first one, but it was a practice round, so three off the tee didn't really matter, especially as I was mapping the course with my GPS anyhow.)

 

[bobmac]

A slice is caused by ONLY one thing, an open clubface when the ball leaves the face! The "out to in" swingpath is just a compensation for the open face.

I have asked teachers of all standards and ages and never get the same answer to this question.
You obviously teach the clubface causes the slice and the swing path reacts to that. And yet other coaches have told me the swing naturally goes out to in and the clubface stays open as a reaction to the path to stop the pull.
So does the club face stay open to compensate for the path, or vice versa.
Chicken or the egg really lol
I'd love to hear more David

 

[davidmac00]

Bobmac,

Good question (chicken and egg), so here is how I teach it, you can swing a dowel (pipe,stick, plank of wood or whatever) and swing it full force and control the path without problems and your pupils will be able to do the same.

They can do it and make contact too, and if you told them to swing from inside, they would do it first time also.

Why then can they do it with a dowel but not a club?

Whats different?

A club has a sweet spot! This sweet spot does not rotate around the hosel, but rather the hosel around the sweet spot. You can test this by looking at a clubhead while you do a Tiger twirl!

What difference does this make?

A lot, as whether you realise it or not you CAN feel the sweet spot when you swing, so you swing the sweet spot at the ball! The only way to do this with an open face and make contact is from "out to in" with usually a good deal of flipping!

Martin Hall and Butch Harmon to name the top two instructors in the game today teach club face first along with many other notables.

I dont know if they teach this way because of the sweet spot or just experience. It was Brian Manzella that first got me thinking about a few years back.

People learning the game will slice due to opening the face to get the ball airborn and this, for me at least, explains why teachers would feel an "out to in" swing path to be natural.

These are my reasons for fixing the face first anyway,
cheers David McCallum.