Where to Drop?

[backwoodsman]

Came across a situation at the weekend which caused a bit of head scratching...

Behind our 4th green there is a few yards of fringe, then a ditch (lateral with red stakes) behind which is the boundary fence of the course. There's only a few inches between the ditch and the fence - both of which are more or less at right angles to the direction of play down the fairway. The fence is a picket fence with upright palings separated by narrow (ish) gaps.

A ball which overshoots the green either goes over the fence & OOB, or rebounds off the fence and drops in the ditch (or, if you're lucky bounces back green-side of the ditch). Procedure in all case is straightforward. However, at the weekend we found a ball jammed in the gap between two upright palings. Regardless of whether it had been struck there, or deliberately jammed in, we pondered what the procedure would be.

Ball was not OOB as most of it protruded course-side of the fence face. And the fence - defining OOB - is not an obstruction, so no relief under rule 24. If you decided unplayable, you couldn't drop "on a line" under 28a as that just takes you OOB. Two club lengths sideways under 28c would only get you into the ditch (anything much "forward" of sideways would be nearer the hole and there's no room to drop between the fence and the ditch)

Were we right in thinking that the only options would be to play it as it lay - ie give it a bash with the toe of the club and hope for the best. Or to replay under stroke and distance. Are there options we missed?

 

[palindromicbob]

Sounds about right.

 

[Foxholer]

Sounds about right.

Does for me too.

As an aside, I presume there's a Drop Zone for the any shot that ends up in the ditch. Otherwise the only place to drop is between the ditch and OB (not a good choice as only a few inches so no back-swing) or to go back and replay - or play it from ditch.

 

[Colin L]

If it were possible to drop it in the ditch within two club lengths and not nearer the hole, that would be an option under Rule 28. Clearly you would only do that if you were sure of its ending up playable from the ditch. If you did that and got it wrong with the ball being unplayable in the ditch, your only option then is to play from where you played your last stroke. Which means you end up back where you last played at the total cost of 2 penalty strokes when you could have done that directly from where your ball was wedged in the fence for only 1 penalty stroke.

You might have considered playing the ball as it lay by hitting it or the fence from the OOB side

 

[backwoodsman]

Does for me too.

As an aside, I presume there's a Drop Zone for the any shot that ends up in the ditch. Otherwise the only place to drop is between the ditch and OB (not a good choice as only a few inches so no back-swing) or to go back and replay - or play it from ditch.

Nope - no DZ. But because its a red lateral hazard, when dropping green-side of the ditch there is the option of going sideways "round the circle" to keep the ball "not nearer the hole"

 

[backwoodsman]

If it were possible to drop it in the ditch within two club lengths and not nearer the hole, that would be an option under Rule 28. Clearly you would only do that if you were sure of its ending up playable from the ditch. If you did that and got it wrong with the ball being unplayable in the ditch, your only option then is to play from where you played your last stroke. Which means you end up back where you last played at the total cost of 2 penalty strokes when you could have done that directly from where your ball was wedged in the fence for only 1 penalty stroke.

But can you do that? I thought that if a ball was not in a hazard prior to dropping, then you can't drop into a hazard - as per 20-2c about re-dropping if a ball rolls into (or out of) a hazard.

 

[Foxholer]

But can you do that? I thought that if a ball was not in a hazard prior to dropping, then you can't drop into a hazard - as per 20-2c about re-dropping if a ball rolls into (or out of) a hazard.

Ha! Every day's a school-day! I had considered and rejected dropping into the hazard for the same reason. But Colin has prompted a better look at 20-c(i)! It's only when the ball 'rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard' that it must be re-dropped! If it's dropped into a hazard in the first place, then all ok! Reading the sub-clause literally is the key - as ever. It's 'and', not 'or'!

Re the lack of a DZ. While I agree that 'round the circle' can allow 2CL to be used (Red Stakes only) the ditch needs to be a shape that allows this - pretty much for its entirety. But if it does, then 'all good'.

 

[Twire]

If the picket fence is defining the OOB, then with the ball touching it is it not automatically OOB. Similar too the ball touching an OOB white stake?

 

[Colin L]

But can you do that? I thought that if a ball was not in a hazard prior to dropping, then you can't drop into a hazard - as per 20-2c about re-dropping if a ball rolls into (or out of) a hazard.

Look at the applicable rule, which is 28, in which one of your options is simply

Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

There are no restrictions stated on where that might be. You can drop in a hazard.

You could also take a look at Decision 28/4 for confirmation of this and 28/4.5 for the reason why, if you then can't play the ball and want to proceed under the water hazard rule, you only have one option - to play from where you played your last stroke.

 

[Colin L]

If the picket fence is defining the OOB, then with the ball touching it is it not automatically OOB. Similar too the ball touching an OOB white stake?

It is certainly not "automatically" OOB because the ball is touching the fence or a stake. To be out of bounds, the ball must be completely over the OOB line. It is possible for a ball to be touching the side of the stake and be OOB or maybe for a ball to be caught between pickets but far enough through to be OOB. It could be touching the stake and be in bounds because only part of the ball is over the line. Whether it is touching fence or stake is really irrelevant.

Not to be confused, then, with stakes marking a water hazard where a ball touching one is in the hazard.

 

[Twire]

Not to be confused, then, with stakes marking a water hazard where a ball touching one is in the hazard.

This is where my confusion comes from. I thought it was the same with OOB stakes.

 

[atticusfinch]

The default position of the rules is that you may do anything unless it is prohibited by the rules.

So when taking relief under a rule like 26 or 28 the initial drop may be in a bunker if all other conditions are met, because it is not prohibited.

If you chose not to drop in a bunker and it rolls into one, you must try again. Same if the initial drop is in a bunker and it rolls out. The rules want the ball played in the type of lie chosen for the drop.

Contrast rule 25-1b and Rule 24-2b(i) which prohibit the npr and drop from being in a bunker.

 

[rulefan]

If the picket fence is defining the OOB, then with the ball touching it is it not automatically OOB. Similar too the ball touching an OOB white stake?

A ball touching the course side of the stake is not OOB.

A ball is out of bounds when all of it lies out of bounds

I think you are confusing it with red and yellow stakes.

A ball is in a water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the water hazard.

Edit:

Too slow

 

[Colin L]

Edit:

Too slow

I'd mention early birds were it not that the mention of catching the worms would be too painful after my spectacular gaffe in this forum about worms and burrowing animals.

 

[rulefan]

I'd mention early birds were it not that the mention of catching the worms would be too painful after my spectacular gaffe in this forum about worms and burrowing animals.

Well as you are awake, try this one.

The player decides to proceed under rule 28 and happens to find a place not nearer the hole but in the LWH. He drops in the LWH in order to then proceed under 26. What is his reference point?

 

[Colin L]

Well as you are awake, try this one.

The player decides to proceed under rule 28 and happens to find a place not nearer the hole but in the LWH. He drops in the LWH in order to then proceed under 26. What is his reference point?

Goodness, was I not awake early enough when at 0740 I wrote that the only option if you found you couldn't play out of the LWH was to play from where your previous stroke had been made and referred to D28/4.5?

OK, I didn't spell it out and so, ladies and gents, the reason why you do not also have the options of going back in the line from the hole through where the ball last crossed the margin or 2 club lengths from where it last crossed the margin is that the ball didn't cross the margin while in play. You dropped the ball into the hazard; there is no point of reference.

Now, with all that early morning thinking, I'm ready for a wee lie down and a zizz in order to be refreshed for this evening's Club Championship quarter finals. Spectating that is, and unlikely even to have any claims to deal with.

 

[stevelev]

I might be totally wrong but with the red marker, s and the oob so close to other side, without a drop zone you have only 3 options
1. Play as it lies from within hazard no penalty
2. Drop at point ball was last played from
3. Drop at NPR no closer to the hole which may be off to the left or right to maintain distance from hole.

Now if I'm wrong I'm happy to know the correct ruling as we have similar ditches at our course.

 

[rulefan]

Goodness, was I not awake early enough when at 0740 I wrote that the only option if you found you couldn't play out of the LWH was to play from where your previous stroke had been made and referred to D28/4.5?

Sorry Colin, it seems it was far too early for me to comprehend anything, let alone your 7.40 post.

 

[Colin L]

I might be totally wrong but with the red marker, s and the oob so close to other side, without a drop zone you have only 3 options
1. Play as it lies from within hazard no penalty
2. Drop at point ball was last played from
3. Drop at NPR no closer to the hole which may be off to the left or right to maintain distance from hole.

Now if I'm wrong I'm happy to know the correct ruling as we have similar ditches at our course.

If you're talking about the ball that was stuck in the fence and then dropped in the hazard under the ball unplayable rule (28), you are correct with 1 and 2, but not with 3 for two reasons. Firstly, relief under penalty from a lateral water hazard includes dropping within 2 club lengths of where the ball last crossed the margin or within 2 club lengths of the point on the other side equidistant from the hole. There is no nearest point of relief involved - that's just for obstructions and abnormal ground conditions. Secondly, that option is not available to you if you have dropped the ball in the hazard after deeming it unplayable outside the hazard. This is because to exercise the option you have to know where the ball last crossed the margin. In this situation is hasn't crossed the margin (you dropped it into the hazard) and so you do not have a reference point for your relief. If you don't have that reference point you can only proceed under stroke and distance .

 

[Old Skier]

Change the fence.