Internal Hedge and Fencing

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Seems this is something I really should know for sure…but doubt has crept in given it occurred to a playing companion yesterday.

We planted a hedge down the left hand side of the approach to a green. To protect it as it grew we enclosed it both sides by a chicken wire fence (fixed to wooden posts). OoB posts are the far side of the hedge (and fencing) - there is then an access track running parallel with the hedge and fence before the course boundary hedge. The hedge is now quite mature… but the protective fencing have been retained - and for H&S reasons will be retained to protect players and others walking along the track from stray balls flying into the hedge.

I have assumed by default given the fence is not boundary, that the fence and posts are immovable obstructions from which free relief is afforded. Is that correct or is it something that must be defined by the club. And if free relief is afforded I have assumed NPR not nearer the hole where stance and swing are not impeded by the fence, and then drop within one club length not nearer the hole.

Also…if my ball goes through the chicken wire and comes to rest is in the hedge, do I get free relief as the ball is still in bounds but the fencing is preventing me hitting it…even though if the fence were not there then one and all, including myself…would 99% of the time have to declare it unplayable and take penalty relief?

 

[rulefan]

Seems this is something I really should know for sure…but doubt has crept in given it occurred to a playing companion yesterday.

We planted a hedge down the left hand side of the approach to a green. To protect it as it grew we enclosed it both sides by a chicken wire fence (fixed to wooden posts). OoB posts are the far side of the hedge (and fencing) - there is then an access track running parallel with the hedge and fence before the course boundary hedge. The hedge is now quite mature… but the protective fencing have been retained - and for H&S reasons will be retained to protect players and others walking along the track from stray balls flying into the hedge.

I have assumed by default given the fence is not boundary, that the fence and posts are immovable obstructions from which free relief is afforded. Is that correct or is it something that must be defined by the club. And if free relief is afforded I have assumed NPR not nearer the hole where stance and swing are not impeded by the fence, and then drop within one club length not nearer the hole.

Also…if my ball goes through the chicken wire and comes to rest is in the hedge, do I get free relief as the ball is still in bounds but the fencing is preventing me hitting it…even though if the fence were not there then one and all, including myself…would 99% of the time have to declare it unplayable and take penalty relief?

From your description the fencing is an IO. So all the rules re an IO apply.


Incidentally, how is the access track surfaced/constructed? Is that an IO?
Also, how is the OOB defined?

 

[doublebogey7]

Seems this is something I really should know for sure…but doubt has crept in given it occurred to a playing companion yesterday.

We planted a hedge down the left hand side of the approach to a green. To protect it as it grew we enclosed it both sides by a chicken wire fence (fixed to wooden posts). OoB posts are the far side of the hedge (and fencing) - there is then an access track running parallel with the hedge and fence before the course boundary hedge. The hedge is now quite mature… but the protective fencing have been retained - and for H&S reasons will be retained to protect players and others walking along the track from stray balls flying into the hedge.

I have assumed by default given the fence is not boundary, that the fence and posts are immovable obstructions from which free relief is afforded. Is that correct or is it something that must be defined by the club. And if free relief is afforded I have assumed NPR not nearer the hole where stance and swing are not impeded by the fence, and then drop within one club length not nearer the hole.

Also…if my ball goes through the chicken wire and comes to rest is in the hedge, do I get free relief as the ball is still in bounds but the fencing is preventing me hitting it…even though if the fence were not there then one and all, including myself…would 99% of the time have to declare it unplayable and take penalty relief?

Yes the fence is an immovewable obstruction and therfore the relief you describe is generally available. However if the player would have had no reasonable shot to play had the fence not been there, then relief is not available.

 

[jim8flog]

you are correct that the fence is an immovable obstruction unless declared integral to the course by LR

You would not get relief when the ball is in the hedge

(3) No Relief When Clearly Unreasonable. There is no relief under Rule 16.1:
• When playing the ball as it lies is clearly unreasonable because of something
from which the player is not allowed to take free relief (such as when a player
is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush), or
• When interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of
stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the
circumstances.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

From your description the fencing is an IO. So all the rules re an IO apply.

Incidentally, how is the access track surfaced/constructed? Is that an IO?

The track is OoB. OoB is defined to run between the fence and the track. Can I play a ball standing OoB?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

you are correct that the fence is an immovable obstruction unless declared integral to the course by LR

You would not get relief when the ball is in the hedge

(3) No Relief When Clearly Unreasonable. There is no relief under Rule 16.1:
• When playing the ball as it lies is clearly unreasonable because of something
from which the player is not allowed to take free relief (such as when a player
is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush), or
• When interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of
stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the
circumstances.

On reflection there could be situations when the ball would be within (under the overhanging edge of) the hedge but still playable in some direction…were it not for fence. But it would be debateable.

Plus for the purposes intended, the hedge plus fence are one and the same…a barrier affording protection to anyone walking along the track…a track that is heavily used as it provides access to our practice bunkers and pitching ground.

 

[rulefan]

The track is OoB. OoB is defined to run between the fence and the track. Can I play a ball standing OoB?

Yes.
But you said the track runs between this hedge/fencing and the boundary hedge

Is there room between the OOB line and the 'boundary hedge' to swing a club?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes.
But you said the track runs between this hedge/fencing and the boundary hedge

Ah right - if the OoB line defines the course boundary (kinda obvious) then the track is OoB. The course boundary hedge beyond the track that I referred to is just the hedge defining the boundary of the land owned by the club, and obviously it too is OoB.

 

[rulefan]

On reflection there could be situations when the ball would be within (under the overhanging edge of) the hedge but still playable in some direction…were it not for fence. But it would be debateable.

Plus for the purposes intended, the hedge plus fence are one and the same…a barrier affording protection to anyone walking along the track…a track that is heavily used as it provides access to our practice bunkers and pitching ground.

If the fence causes interference then IMO the enclosed hedge is irrelevant.

But why is the OOB line beyond the fence/hedge structure?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If the fence causes interference then the enclosed hedge is irrelevant.

OK so even if the ball has gone through the wire mesh of the fence and is lying in the hedge…the fact that the ball would most often be unplayable had the fence not been there is irrelevant…because the fence prevents me from even trying, and it is an IO from which free relief is afforded.

 

[rulefan]

OK so even if the ball has gone through the wire mesh of the fence and is lying in the hedge…the fact that the ball would most often be unplayable had the fence not been there is irrelevant…because the fence prevents me from even trying, and it is an IO from which free relief is afforded.

I see the clause as relating to (eg) a player's stance being on a path and the ball being buried in a nearby bush.

 

[backwoodsman]

Is the attached sketch a reasonable depiction of the layout?

For clarity, it's worth pointing out that the chicken-wire fence is an Immovable Object - but the hedge within it is not.

Which, to me, gives rise to the unsatisfactory situation of when the ball is in the hedge (ie though the wire) sometimes free relief from the fence may be available - but sometimes not due to the 'clearly unreasonable' exception mentioned by Jim8flog. Seems to me, given the purpose of the new hedge, the club has an easy solution of simply moving the OOB posts to the 'playing-side' of the hedge.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is the attached sketch a reasonable depiction of the layout?

For clarity, it's worth pointing out that the chicken-wire fence is an Immovable Object - but the hedge within it is not.

Which, to me, gives rise to the unsatisfactory situation of when the ball is in the hedge (ie though the wire) sometimes free relief from the fence may be available - but sometimes not due to the 'clearly unreasonable' exception mentioned by Jim8flog. Seems to me, given the purpose of the new hedge, the club has an easy solution of simply moving the OOB posts to the 'playing-side' of the hedge.

Exactly as per your diagram.

My understanding now is that the problem arises when the ball is through the wire and in the hedge but evidently playable…were it not for the fence. In that scenario free relief would be afforded. But if the ball is in the hedge but evidently NOT playable, then free relief from the fence is NOT afforded.

Now that’s a debate…and if it is contested by another player or opponent how is it resolved? Do I leave my ball where it is in the hedge and play another ball from the NPR assuming free relief and a second ball taking one of my penalty options assuming no free relief. And after round is complete get someone (on a committee) to come out to decide.

Quite separately it’s clear that if my ball is close to the fence but not playable due to the proximity of the fence then full relief may be taken with a drop not nearer the hole within one club length of the NPR.

Also separately. In general can I stand OoB to play a ball that is in bounds?

 

[Steven Rules]

Also separately. In general can I stand OoB to play a ball that is in bounds?

Yes

 

[backwoodsman]

Exactly as per your diagram.

My understanding now is that the problem arises when the ball is through the wire and in the hedge but evidently playable…were it not for the fence. In that scenario free relief would be afforded. But if the ball is in the hedge but evidently NOT playable, then free relief from the fence is NOT afforded.

Now that’s a debate…and if it is contested by another player or opponent how is it resolved? Do I leave my ball where it is in the hedge and play another ball from the NPR assuming free relief and a second ball taking one of my penalty options assuming no free relief. And after round is complete get someone (on a committee) to come out to decide.

Quite separately it’s clear that if my ball is close to the fence but not playable due to the proximity of the fence then full relief may be taken with a drop not nearer the hole within one club length of the NPR.

Also separately. In general can I stand OoB to play a ball that is in bounds?

^^^ pretty much describes the potential dilemma I envisaged.

My thought is that the hedge was planted for a reason (ie safety of those on the track/path). If plenty of balls are going in, or very close to, the hedge then it seems to me that the potential for free relief is diminishing the effectiveness of the hedge as a deterrent or safety feature. IE people don't care if they hit close to the path/hedge as they are likey to get free relief. Personally, I'd still move the OOB boundary to the inside (playing side) of the hedge. That way there's a clear 'signal' of "don't hit close to the track as you'll be in trouble ... "

Or you could make it a red penalty area ...

 

[rulefan]

Now that’s a debate…and if it is contested by another player or opponent how is it resolved? Do I leave my ball where it is in the hedge and play another ball from the NPR assuming free relief and a second ball taking one of my penalty options assuming no free relief. And after round is complete get someone (on a committee) to come out to decide.

Another player - Play 2 balls and let the Committee decide
Opponent - do what you think is right and let them make a claim

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

^^^ pretty much describes the potential dilemma I envisaged.

My thought is that the hedge was planted for a reason (ie safety of those on the track/path). If plenty of balls are going in, or very close to, the hedge then it seems to me that the potential for free relief is diminishing the effectiveness of the hedge as a deterrent or safety feature. IE people don't care if they hit close to the path/hedge as they are likey to get free relief. Personally, I'd still move the OOB boundary to the inside (playing side) of the hedge. That way there's a clear 'signal' of "don't hit close to the track as you'll be in trouble ... "

Or you could make it a red penalty area ...

Had a closer look at the fence today.

The wire mesh size is less than I thought and it would take a ball belted at it from a close distance to get through - and it would have to hit right in the middle of a ‘hole’. So unlikely. That said the top is open so a ball could drop into it…plus one end of the hedge is open to balls being played towards the green…albeit they’d be well off line.

I was advised today that the fence is staying…but given my checking today I appreciate now that the likelihood of a ball getting into the hedge is low. But it remains a possibility so good to know the rules position on it.