When should I pick up in a bogey comp?

[cliveb]

I'm fully aware of the various arguments around whether bogey comps should be qualifiers, but don't want to debate that. I'm simply seeking advice over when to pick up in a qualifying bogey comp given the fact I'm about to play in one tomorrow.

Example: I have 1 stroke on a par 4 and have missed my putt for a 5. Therefore have lost the hole. If I pick up now instead of putting out for a 6, will I be given a 7 in my adjusted score differential? In other words, for the sake of my handicap record, should I carry on to get a net single bogey (even though that will slow down play)?

 

[Billysboots]

We’ve at long last managed to drill this into our committee, so that our starter is given the correct competition rules to read out. For years they have been getting it wrong.

If played as a qualifier, you should be instructed to putt out until you can no longer make a nett bogey. If a non qualifier, you should be instructed to continue until you can no longer make a nett par.

 

[Voyager EMH]

We’ve at long last managed to drill this into our committee, so that our starter is given the correct competition rules to read out. For years they have been getting it wrong.

If played as a qualifier, you should be instructed to putt out until you can no longer make a nett bogey. If a non qualifier, you should be instructed to continue until you can no longer make a nett par.

I believe this is correct and was also correct, in practice, before WHS.

Although the "format of play" is matchplay versus par, the score being submitted for handicapping is a strokeplay score.

I like to look at it as a strokeplay game.
Competition scores are then calculated from those strokeplay scores as matchplay versus par.

 

[D-S]

I believe this is correct and was also correct, in practice, before WHS.

Although the "format of play" is matchplay versus par, the score being submitted for handicapping is a strokeplay score.

I like to look at it as a strokeplay game.
Competition scores are then calculated from those strokeplay scores as matchplay versus par.

I think that is a very good way of looking at it in the way the game is played now (as a qualifier).

It is a shame that it is not pure matchplay against the course as this is a little bit different from the normal run of the mill Stableford play.

 

[cliveb]

We’ve at long last managed to drill this into our committee, so that our starter is given the correct competition rules to read out. For years they have been getting it wrong.

If played as a qualifier, you should be instructed to putt out until you can no longer make a nett bogey. If a non qualifier, you should be instructed to continue until you can no longer make a nett par.

Thanks. You're lucky to have a starter who can inform the players. Mine is a fairly small club and we don't have starters (except at opens), so the players are left to fend for themselves. I'll make sure not to pick up too soon.

I believe this is correct and was also correct, in practice, before WHS.

In the old CONGU days, there was a table specifically to convert bogey scores into the appropriate score for handicapping. So you could pick up as soon as you lost the hole - no need to hole out for a net bogey.

 

[Orikoru]

If it's counting for handicap I would be putting out for nett bogeys, absolutely. I know that's at odds with the Bogey format, but that would be your committee's own stupid fault for making a Bogey comp a qualifier.

Moreover, I wouldn't have entered a Bogey comp in the first place because it's a rubbish format.

 

[irip]

If it's counting for handicap I would be putting out for nett bogeys, absolutely. I know that's at odds with the Bogey format, but that would be your committee's own stupid fault for making a Bogey comp a qualifier.

Moreover, I wouldn't have entered a Bogey comp in the first place because it's a rubbish format.

I quite enjoy it as something a bit different.
I like to play lots of different formats as find it more interesting.
Couple a year is enough but I agree it shouldn’t be a qualifier it just seems to add to the confusion of scoring for some players.

 

[Billysboots]

I believe this is correct and was also correct, in practice, before WHS.

Although the "format of play" is matchplay versus par, the score being submitted for handicapping is a strokeplay score.

I like to look at it as a strokeplay game.
Competition scores are then calculated from those strokeplay scores as matchplay versus par.

I agree in theory.

But I have had this discussion with our competition committee any number of times around bogey comps being played as qualifiers.

Whilst, in theory, the aim should perhaps be to just shoot as low as possible and let the competition take care of itself, the reality for most is quite different.

The whole aim of a bogey comp is not necessarily to shoot as low as possible, it’s to beat the course. And there is a significant difference between the two, which is precisely why they should not be used as qualifiers.

The example I have used times is if I have a ten footer for birdie on a shot hole. In a strokeplay comp I am trying to make it. In a bogey comp I am trying not to leave myself a three footer coming back, so the odds are I am cosying it up to the hole side and trying to walk off with a nett birdie.

There is no way on this earth a bogey should be played as a qualifier. It’s just plain wrong.

 

[doublebogey7]

I agree in theory.

But I have had this discussion with our competition committee any number of times around bogey comps being played as qualifiers.

Whilst, in theory, the aim should perhaps be to just shoot as low as possible and let the competition take care of itself, the reality for most is quite different.

The whole aim of a bogey comp is not necessarily to shoot as low as possible, it’s to beat the course. And there is a significant difference between the two, which is precisely why they should not be used as qualifiers.

The example I have used times is if I have a ten footer for birdie on a shot hole. In a strokeplay comp I am trying to make it. In a bogey comp I am trying not to leave myself a three footer coming back, so the odds are I am cosying it up to the hole side and trying to walk off with a nett birdie.

There is no way on this earth a bogey should be played as a qualifier. It’s just plain wrong.

I'll say it again and nobody I am not sure I have ever been given and complete answer, if that the case why should handicaps based solely on a different format of the one we use for this format. Perhaps we need a matchplay/bogey handicap and a strokeplay/stableford handicap????? I am very confident that if we had both, then the vast majority of us would be playing from very similar handicaps in both formats. The amount of times in a round that the considerations you espouse actually come into play will make veery little differewnce to your handicap. The more formats that can be used for handicapping will lead to more accurate handicaps and less complaints about bandits, yet some people seem happy that players can score really well in only some formats and it have no effect on their handicap.

 

[D-S]

I'll say it again and nobody I am not sure I have ever been given and complete answer, if that the case why should handicaps based solely on a different format of the one we use for this format. Perhaps we need a matchplay/bogey handicap and a strokeplay/stableford handicap????? I am very confident that if we had both, then the vast majority of us would be playing from very similar handicaps in both formats. The amount of times in a round that the considerations you espouse actually come into play will make veery little differewnce to your handicap. The more formats that can be used for handicapping will lead to more accurate handicaps and less complaints about bandits, yet some people seem happy that players can score really well in only some formats and it have no effect on their handicap.

Do you have any evidence on that? In the US far more formats are used, are their handicaps the gold standard of accuracy?

 

[doublebogey7]

Do you have any evidence on that? In the US far more formats are used, are their handicaps the gold standard of accuracy?

I don't, though how america where they, as I understand it, play very little competitive golf is relevant I am not sure. From the little I know they have bigger problems becuase very few scores are used for handicap in competive play. It seems to me that if all competive rounds were counted in this country their would be fewer complaints of bandorory as players could not get away with winning comps played in formats that currently are not acceptable. At the very bare minimum all such rounds should be recorded by EG, so everyone as full sight of who is doing what. Today so many rumblings out there because Joe bloggs is alleged to have won an open with 55 pts at timbooktu GC.

 

[Voyager EMH]

In the old CONGU days, there was a table specifically to convert bogey scores into the appropriate score for handicapping. So you could pick up as soon as you lost the hole - no need to hole out for a net bogey.

If that was merely converting the results ...+2, +1, level, -1, -2...etc into net scores, I believe it was flawed.
It did not take account of a birdie on a shot hole or an eagle.

 

[D-S]

I don't, though how america where they, as I understand it, play very little competitive golf is relevant I am not sure. From the little I know they have bigger problems becuase very few scores are used for handicap in competive play. It seems to me that if all competive rounds were counted in this country their would be fewer complaints of bandorory as players could not get away with winning comps played in formats that currently are not acceptable. At the very bare minimum all such rounds should be recorded by EG, so everyone as full sight of who is doing what. Today so many rumblings out there because Joe bloggs is alleged to have won an open with 55 pts at timbooktu GC.

I’m not sure if there would be a huge extra database of scores if proper competition matchplay (and the odd team format, not 4BB) is added.
Most clubs just run a couple of winter and summer knockouts and the diminishing number of rounds played won’t have a significant impact on accuracy especially given other potentially problematic factors in recording these scores. The vast majority of competition golf is singles strokeplay followed by 4BB, although this is a tiny fraction of singles strokeplay. Including other formats such as the odd Bowmaker and a round or two of matchplay isn’t going to make a significant change.
The real way of adding a significant volume of extra data is using social golf in other formats but that is exactly the can of worms that leads to US style accuracy issues.

 

[cliveb]

If that was merely converting the results ...+2, +1, level, -1, -2...etc into net scores, I believe it was flawed.
It did not take account of a birdie on a shot hole or an eagle.

That's a good point. I'd never really considered it because when you're as bad at the game as I am, birdies on shot holes are very rare events

 

[rosecott]

Here is a reminder I circulate before a Bogey comp - as it says, it also applies to stableford.

A reminder about World Handicap System and singles competitions.

Stableford and Bogey – be aware of the point where you can no longer score a Stableford point or achieve a “half” in a Bogey. You should also be aware that your Playing Handicap may be 1 or even 2 shots lower than your Course Handicap so be careful not to pick up too early as WHS handicap calculations are based on Course Handicaps.

 

[doublebogey7]

I’m not sure if there would be a huge extra database of scores if proper competition matchplay (and the odd team format, not 4BB) is added.
Most clubs just run a couple of winter and summer knockouts and the diminishing number of rounds played won’t have a significant impact on accuracy especially given other potentially problematic factors in recording these scores. The vast majority of competition golf is singles strokeplay followed by 4BB, although this is a tiny fraction of singles strokeplay. Including other formats such as the odd Bowmaker and a round or two of matchplay isn’t going to make a significant change.
The real way of adding a significant volume of extra data is using social golf in other formats but that is exactly the can of worms that leads to US style accuracy issues.

Here lies the problem, you describe your expereince but it is not mine. Overall I am guessing you are right in terms of the majority of players, but there are still not an insignificant number of golfers like me, who in the last summer played more competitive golf in formats other than singles, to summerize 7 singles SP/Stableford, 4 4B, 20 MP (4B) 4 MP (S) 4 AmAm, 26 GP. So most likely my handicap will not represent my scores in competetive play, and most of those I play with will be similar.

 

[D-S]

Here lies the problem, you describe your expereince but it is not mine. Overall I am guessing you are right in terms of the majority of players, but there are still not an insignificant number of golfers like me, who in the last summer played more competitive golf in formats other than singles, to summerize 7 singles SP/Stableford, 4 4B, 20 MP (4B) 4 MP (S) 4 AmAm, 26 GP. So most likely my handicap will not represent my scores in competetive play, and most of those I play with will be similar.

I think you may well be an exception that proves your rule. Only a few people in any one club would play anything like 24 club competitive or knockout matchplay rounds in any one year - that is a huge amount and would be difficult to do at most clubs without winning or getting to the final of every matchplay competition, evidence of which could be subject to review anyway. Also as the majority if these are 4BB matchplay, for me the most problematic scoring format to use for handicapping, I am not sure if this would make accuracy greater.
However, I think we both know that these formats are not going to be eligible in the short or medium term so I guess the question is moot.

 

[D-S]

Here is a reminder I circulate before a Bogey comp - as it says, it also applies to stableford.

A reminder about World Handicap System and singles competitions.

Stableford and Bogey – be aware of the point where you can no longer score a Stableford point or achieve a “half” in a Bogey. You should also be aware that your Playing Handicap may be 1 or even 2 shots lower than your Course Handicap so be careful not to pick up too early as WHS handicap calculations are based on Course Handicaps.

This is a sensible note to have and covers the points neatly, however it is a shame to make a seemingly simple concept of a game - you against the course matchplay - so complex just to have it as a qualifier.