When.....Is enough...Enough

[Achilles]

I've never been one for technical talk and like to keep things as simple as possible - that may change in the future when my h/c gets lower - but for now, I'm happy. I've been stood over the ball in the past thinking about knee flex, spine angle, weight distribution and so forth, and by the time I'm taking the club away I've forgotten where I'm aiming and what club I'm holding. Not good.

My only swing thought now (if I can keep everything else out) is 'Smooth Tempo'. That slows my backswing down for starters and gets me swinging through the ball at a nice consistent speed rather than smashing the crap out of it. Seems to be doing wonders for my ball striking at the mo. As soon as I lash at the ball I tend to pull or hook it.

 

[rosecott]

I tend to think of "You Porn" when I am playing. Helps me find some kind of rhythm. A side effect is that I've got something to keep my hand warm when required (please notice I said "hand" and not "hands". I don't brag).

Must remember not to shake hands with you on the 18th green if I ever play with you.

 

[Snelly]

Thats his opinion and he makes a point. I still cannot see how you can improve by practising with no swing thoughts: What can you hope to improve by just repeating what may be an ugly swing so many times that it gets inprinted into your muscle memory.

Some people can become very good golfers without lessons or structured practice, they have the natural ability for it. MOST people dont have that ability and cant become good this way and it's futile trying to say that because 'one' can do it anyone can. Some people are natural mathamaticians, some musicians, some good <enter any skill here> But most are not.

I disagree with this 100%.

First of all, I am not nor have I said at any time that you should practice an ugly swing with bad results.

Secondly, I don't believe in natural ability and rather than get in to a detailed rationale as to why (as this would take a long time and I am busy - sorry), I would rather point you to an excellent book on this subject called Bounce by Matthew Syed. The explores the myth of natural aptitude and the importance of purposeful practice. It is a riveting read and explains how people like Lionel Messi and Tiger Woods are not superhuman talents with god given gifts. They are simply the product of their circumstances. Back to the question in hand then.....

So what am I saying? Well, my overriding view is that golf is an extremely simple game that a lot of people make very complicated. In this specific instance, this transaltes to the view that cluttering your mind when over the ball with mechanical thoughts cannot help you hit a good shot because you are thinking about something other than hitting the ball cleanly and nicely.

Secondly for the average club golfer, IF (and I accept that this is quite a big IF) you have sound fundamentals like grip, stance and tempo of swing then the best way to improve is not through books, videos, lessons or asking questions on a forum. Playing a lot of golf and practicing purposefully are the best solution and fastest route to improvement. There is no substitute for this. No short cuts to good golf.

For example, if your mid irons all slice then go to the range and experiment. Strengthen your grip a bit. Try a different ball position, ask your teaching pro for a tip or two, dare I say even have a lesson on it. Experiment with the tempo of your swing. With tweaking, you will start to find what works for you and you will hit the mid iron that you are happy with.

When you do, keep doing it. A lot. And aim at a target to ensure your practice is purposeful. When you can get the desired result, and by this I mean the result that you are happy with at the level you are currently playing, 9 times out of 10, do it on the course. Repeat the process for the weakest part of your game and you can fix it. This is NOT the same as practicing the same poor shot or swing for weeks on end.

There's nothing new in golf really. The adage, practice makes perfect is absolutely fitting for golfers. There are virtually no category 1 players in our game that have not hit thousands and thousands of golf balls over the years.


Of course, I am not suggesting that if you free your mind and just get on with hitting the ball that your handicap will plummet. However what I do believe is that if you do this and drop all the technical thinking and obsession with equipment then it won't adversely affect your golf at all and you will be playing the game as it was originally intended - simply and enjoyably.

Just my opinion of course and I might be completely wrong! And nor am I knocking anyone that takes a highly mechanical approach to golf as I am sure it works for some and adds to their enjoyment of the game. It would be anathema to me though.

Cheers,


Snelly.

 

[chrisd]

I tend to think of "You Porn" when I am playing. Helps me find some kind of rhythm. A side effect is that I've got something to keep my hand warm when required (please notice I said "hand" and not "hands". I don't brag).

Is it easy to hit straight when addressing the ball cross eyed?



Chris

 

[SocketRocket]

I disagree with this 100%.

First of all, I am not nor have I said at any time that you should practice an ugly swing with bad results.

Secondly, I don't believe in natural ability and rather than get in to a detailed rationale as to why (as this would take a long time and I am busy - sorry), I would rather point you to an excellent book on this subject called Bounce by Matthew Syed. The explores the myth of natural aptitude and the importance of purposeful practice. It is a riveting read and explains how people like Lionel Messi and Tiger Woods are not superhuman talents with god given gifts. They are simply the product of their circumstances. Back to the question in hand then.....

So what am I saying? Well, my overriding view is that golf is an extremely simple game that a lot of people make very complicated. In this specific instance, this transaltes to the view that cluttering your mind when over the ball with mechanical thoughts cannot help you hit a good shot because you are thinking about something other than hitting the ball cleanly and nicely.

Secondly for the average club golfer, IF (and I accept that this is quite a big IF) you have sound fundamentals like grip, stance and tempo of swing then the best way to improve is not through books, videos, lessons or asking questions on a forum. Playing a lot of golf and practicing purposefully are the best solution and fastest route to improvement. There is no substitute for this. No short cuts to good golf.

For example, if your mid irons all slice then go to the range and experiment. Strengthen your grip a bit. Try a different ball position, ask your teaching pro for a tip or two, dare I say even have a lesson on it. Experiment with the tempo of your swing. With tweaking, you will start to find what works for you and you will hit the mid iron that you are happy with.

When you do, keep doing it. A lot. And aim at a target to ensure your practice is purposeful. When you can get the desired result, and by this I mean the result that you are happy with at the level you are currently playing, 9 times out of 10, do it on the course. Repeat the process for the weakest part of your game and you can fix it. This is NOT the same as practicing the same poor shot or swing for weeks on end.

There's nothing new in golf really. The adage, practice makes perfect is absolutely fitting for golfers. There are virtually no category 1 players in our game that have not hit thousands and thousands of golf balls over the years.


Of course, I am not suggesting that if you free your mind and just get on with hitting the ball that your handicap will plummet. However what I do believe is that if you do this and drop all the technical thinking and obsession with equipment then it won't adversely affect your golf at all and you will be playing the game as it was originally intended - simply and enjoyably.

Just my opinion of course and I might be completely wrong! And nor am I knocking anyone that takes a highly mechanical approach to golf as I am sure it works for some and adds to their enjoyment of the game. It would be anathema to me though.

Cheers,


Snelly.

Ok, where do I start/

First, I would never suggest someone stands over the golf ball when playing with a head full of swing thoughts. The place for swing thoughts are when you are practising and working on a problem.

You say that golf is an extremely easy game. It may be to you but surely you can see that people are put together with differing abilities, everyone does not have the same dexterity, hand eye coordination, this makes playing sports harder for many people. It's not an even playing field.

Your other point relating to an average club golfer who has the basic principles of setup should be able to improve by playing golf and practising. Now you must meet a different type of average Joe on the course than I do. The average guy I know has played golf for many years and still hits off his back foot, flips his wrists at the ball trying to get it airbourne, cuts across the ball with a big slice and at the same time is frustrated that he cannot play better. He generally also has no idea what he is doing wrong.

You also suggest the way to improve for these people is to go to the range and experement with grip and ball position, do you honestly believe this will get people hitting the ball well? I dont and I have seen more frustrated golfers despaiing at the results of their efforts than you can shake a niblik at.

You are correct that there is nothing new in golf but thats OK if you have an understanding to start with. Striking a golf ball well is not an intuitave action, our brains do not want us to hit down on the ball to get it in the air so people instintively flip their wrists and hang back. This is the factor that creates most problems for struggling golfers but most never understand it.

Practise does not make perfect, thats a fallicy, 'Perfect practice makes perfect' you will only improve by practising the right things. You are correct that the best golfers have hit thousands of golf balls, the top players in the world hit hundreds every day and they have a coach with them pointing out what they should and should not be doing, even at their standard.

I would repeat that I do not believe a golfer should be playing the game with a mind churning away with swing thoughts, I guess that is something we agree on. I also think that much of the caoching people get is not directed to the principles that really matter. It's no good trying to keep changing a fairly OK swing but it is a good idea to have a sound understanding of what makes great club ball impact and to work on making this better and better.

I would also reccomend a book, it's 'Nail It' by Joe Hagen. He has developed a teaching system where you do not teach anything about swinging the club, you only focus on three skills relating to club and ball impact. He suggests that if people only practice these three skills their swing will take care of it's self.

This is also just my opinion and one that I am happy to debate while considering others views. I would never suggest that someone else was 100% wrong though. Maybe 99%

 

[Deleted member 1147]

There are virtually no category 1 players in our game that have not hit thousands and thousands of golf balls over the years.



Snelly.

I was one for a while last year, but lack of practice meant I went back up to category 2 quite quickly.

 

[keef]

Interesting thread - mostly i read as people saying the same stuff. I have read all the rotella books and the inner game etc and although they all focus on "decluttering" while over the ball what they don,t say is that they are dealing with golfers who are already at a level of technical know how and ability that most of us are not.

I agree with Socket that most of the club golfers i play with have all kinds of disturbing habits/yips/jitters which are borne from years of mental torture and pain!! I also agree with Snelly but in particular Achilles, in that for me tempo is everything and if you can maintain it you are most of the way there to a good contact and in the desired direction. I also am a big beliver in follow through - but hey that is two swing thoughts - enough for today.

 

[DaveM]

To me this is a chicken and egg syndrome. Yes it is good to swing with no fear! But how do you do that if you dont know what your doing. Then on the other hand you can have a head full of thoughts and still not a clue what your doing.

To me it was learn the basics. Understand what happens. Practice at the range. But clear your head on the course and just enjoy and swing with what you bring.

So I guess what I am saying is you are both right. How about that for fence sitting?

 

[SocketRocket]

To me this is a chicken and egg syndrome. Yes it is good to swing with no fear! But how do you do that if you dont know what your doing. Then on the other hand you can have a head full of thoughts and still not a clue what your doing.

To me it was learn the basics. Understand what happens. Practice at the range. But clear your head on the course and just enjoy and swing with what you bring.

So I guess what I am saying is you are both right. How about that for fence sitting?

I think thats what I was saying.

 

[Oddsocks]

Im kinda with Snelly on hes thought process, but ill back it up with cold facts.

Ive recently undergone some swing changes, well actually through most of 2011, which have seen a change in grip, swing plane and ball position, and in the words of my pro are that im swinging better than ever, now i just need to take it to the course.

Now in November i was out playing well, a couple of comp wins and a few cuts and all of a sudden out of no where the quality of striking seemed to drop on my irons, i looked at videos of my swing, looked at videos of other good golfers ranging from pro's to 8/9 cappers and one thing that seemed to be missing from my swing was a firm & stable posture. ok we are all told to relax, but sometimes i looked at my swing and it looked over relaxed.

....So... off to the range, and experiment, drop the legs a little more but stiffen them slightly, and overall try and get the feel of being a bit more stable. as if by magic within 20 balls my irons were firing on all cylinders. i got a friend to video the swing last weekend and compared it against the old swing.. The difference in the two swings were night and day, almost as if the fundermentals were there but any sort of posture wasnt.

The new more stable OS has been on the course for rounds, and overall results have been better, ive got to say some of it looks to resemble basics from the S&T set up without being fully committed to it, and it seems to have put about 10 yards on my drives too All irons seem to have a cleaner more powerfull strike, but i agree with snelly, if you have the basics in place, dont be scared to try something, especially if you see others doing it and its working.

I do sometimes wonder if the things we read on this forum make us question our own game, maybe this new no thinking idea could actually be the way forward. ive thrown many a good card in the bin recently by not thinking on the front 9, only to let the brain kick in on the back 9 and blow it... its not due to be frozen this weekend, so watch this space.

 

[Mattyboy]

I could read the longer posts above and probably will tonight, but for me its simple!

Lessons - Understand what changes you need to make.
Practice - Learn to engrain those changes.
Playing - Think about where do you want the ball to go and how are you going to get it there?


Its sounds simple but its easier said than done.

Good thread by the way, says he (pre empting what he will read this evening!)

 

[coolhand]

The reference to Nail It actually indicates (IMHO) that Snelly and Socket are actaully coming from the same place. I've read it and the emphasis is on getting a few simple things right that are practiced and practiced until they become habit. There is little talk of physics, not much mention of swing plane or weight shift.

There seems to be a shared philosophy here:

Get the basic right
Lots of practice
Don't make thing complicated.

Sounds good to me.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

This is exactly the reason I stopped having lessons and didn't go to the range all summer. I just took the swing I had, got to the course as often as possible and played. I had no technical thoughts about my swing, just hit it. Prior to this year I could be found on the practice ground a couple of times a week. It's no surprise that my handicap has fallen this year. I think the term you are looking for is paralysis by analysis.

 

[Snelly]

Socket,

I can't quite see the major difference in our views to be honest.

Just one clarification - I didn't say that golf was easy. I said it was simple. By that I mean that you need to hit a ball with a club in a general direction on 18 holes. That isn't the same as saying it is easy to do.


Snelly.

 

[Hobbit]

This sort of thread has been in my mind to put up for a while. I believe that if you've been given the basics it then becomes about just going and doing it. Did you spend years learning to walk, then to run? Crumple up a piece of paper and throw into a waste paper basket. You do it without thinking about the how, and more often than not it goes in the bin. Now consciously think about how to crumple the paper, and have the forearm pointing straight, elbow, down, slowly back with the thumb at right angles to the direction of throw... and you'll miss more being 'formalised' than you will by doing it instinctively.

Just a quick point with regards to the natural position for the hands. The hands have the least tension when both palm are together, and at right angles to the ground - a neutral grip. If you consciously have one hand more dominant you will either hook it or slice it as the hands try and return to a neutral position.

I tried the formalised route about 10 years ago and had the worst year of golf ever... returned to my grip it and rip it attitude and have a great time out on the course.

 

[Snelly]

Another thought that occurs to me is that coming round to my way of thinking can perhaps be related to how long you have played. When I was younger, I had a phase of being a student of the golf swing and this coincided with an elaborate pre-shot routine too.

Perhaps as one matures as a golfer, it becomes clear that these things are less important than first imagined. Or even that you need to go through a technical phase to evolve as a player?

On reflection, I certainly think that golf has become easier for me as i have got older but have generally attributed this to the fact that I have grown up a bit and this means focusing on the number I write on the card for each hole rather than attempting the high risk, high rewards shots of my younger years? Perhaps I am wrong on this though and the game is just easier because I have played for a long time?

Maybe that is the answer. After 30 years of golf and assuming you start as a kid, you will probably be a pretty good player and the game seems easier. The swing is ingrained and the muscle memory good. Thinking about the mechanics of a shot becomes a distant memory.

Interesting topic.

 

[Oddsocks]

see i do see age verses attitude as a factor... and a big one at that.

As a kid (15-18), i got as low as 11, this was playing no thinking golf, hit a shot, walk up, look at the markers, hit a shot, and so on. What i have noticed is since getting back into golf about 3 years ago... i partially had the same approach, although i always wanted to get back to where i was of previous years, around cat2.

Now since joining this forum, im learning about all sorts of stuff, kick points, shaft torques, ball specs, spin rates, smash ractors, flight laws etc etc etc and while education is a good thing, sometimes it can be too much. At the start of 2011, my driving was awesome, the strongest part of my game, but after reading about spin rates from different spec shafts costing people distance, it planted that seed of doubt. Am i not as long as other people because my shaft is wrong for me.... obviously no, its because of some of the over technical stuff i read on here that planted that doubt.

We all strive to become better golfers, whether your new to the sport and want to get to 20 from 28, or whether you have been in the sport for years, your off single digits and want to get to cat 1 its all the same. i think that thinking less and just enjoying this sport see's a faster progression than over studying it, but the question for me is in my aim to get lower, can i simply turn the brain off from other variables, and just stick with the basics to improve.....

One of my friends suggested a sports shrink to block out the thinking process, it was suggesting as a joke, but i think he could be onto something.

 

[Hobbit]

just thinking out loud... were there more Cat 1's/cat 2's before custom fitting?

 

[Monty_Brown]

Great thread this. Kicked off with a cracking OP from Kid2 :clap:

I think I have been on both sides of this debate during my golfing career.

Started playing at 13. Got down to single figs by 16 and would just play and play and play.... the benefits of school holidays. I rarely went to the practice ground as there was a lovely great course to get on and enjoy, right alongside it.

I watched a load of golf on TV, and those players I liked, I'd try to copy their swings, by feel, as this was before we all had video cameras on our phones. So any technical change to my game was based on feel rather than thoughts or observing positions on film. It seemed very easy.

Fast forward 20 years and I confess I can be found on the range filming myself, buying Stack and Tilt books, and reading forums for technical ideas (not this one though... this is just for banter!)

I do it this way now because it also brings me pleasure. I think its similar to guys who spend their spare time tinkering with car engines to tune them up. They don't need to, but it appeals to that slightly nerdy tendency that many of us have. I am also a keen distance runner, and also like to read about running technique, even though running is one of the most basic things we can do. It's just the way I am (currently) wired.

I think Snelly has a point about your approach to golf changing as you go through life. I hope that when I'm in my 60s like him, I'll play with that freedom :rofl:

 

[Bikky73]

So what you're all telling me is to stop concentrating and trying to better myself, which has made me worse, and just drop the ball and Happy Gilmore it?