When did you call it a day on lessons?

[JustOne]

I have just decided not to take any more lessons. I have had 8 lessons since Christmas and while I respect my pro I had a lesson with him last week and clearly showed him with numbers and ball flight that the way I was now swinging gave me exactly what we have spent 9 months working on. I did not achieve these numbers by doing what he has been asking me to do for 9 months (and I seemingly could not do). I did it by learning how my body could best get to where I wanted it and grooving exactly that. He was not pleased about it and started trying to change what I was doing despite the numbers being what we had worked so hard.

I am after results.

For now at least I have the information and am seeing what I want to see, I know why, how and so on so shall be going my own way for the foreseeable.

He was telling you stuff and you didn't do it? why continue with the lessons? Did you discuss this with him?

Just interested 'in the story' mate, that's all...... I thought your game was heading in the right direction....?

 

[londonlewis]

I find all this stuff fascinating really as some people swear by lessons and others swear against them.

I am going to base this on having spent many an hour at the driving range next to people taking lessons.
My initial analysis is that teaching pros tend to have a particular style they like their students to adopt when learning the game. But my issue is that everyone is different and therefore lessons need to be tailored for every golfer - I am yet to see a teaching pro adapt to every student independently.

The best example I can give of this was a pro that was trying to get a middle aged lady into the same positions that the professionals get into during her backswing. No matter how hard she tried, she was very unlikely to ever achieve this athletic position. I thought it was baffling that she would part with her money to be taught something that she was clearly never going to achieve.

 

[kid2]

Some really fascinating replies......I think if i had have posted this before the lessons i may have had a re think..... But i do know that through taking the lessons i figured out how to hit the ball from the inside without Giving up...

This i think is the main reason that some people who take lessons fail..... I know that the side of the argument that states a teacher should teach the individual rather than their particular style holds true.... I agree with this totally......


I have a better understanding of my swing since taking them and having a rethink and a sit down i feel that maybe 4 more for the coming season may not be such a bad thing...... If i fail to drop any more shots next season then so be it but im confident that i will......

I guess for most its a journey that you either commit to or you dont..... Any middle ground is pointless...
I would love to have Snelly and Rob's take on the game.... I think its great to be able approach a sport that way...Trust is such a big word in this game and if you cant trust your ball to end up where you want it to roughly then it makes it even harder.......

I know i have the ability and the drive to get to Cat 1 and im a very patient person, I just hope they have the staying power that i need....

 

[NWJocko]

It's not my place to say that someone shouldn't have lessons because many people wouldn't have a clue at all without them.

My skepticism comes from seeing plenty of people who have had many, many lessons but still swing the club around the back of their legs, come over the top, early extend, flip the club or ALL OF THESE. It makes me wonder what the hell they're being taught! You can't just start tweaking your downswing position if your club is across the line at the top because you swung it around the back of your legs to get it there.

I think you need lessons (and you might as well book them).... but you need the RIGHT ones. You need someone who is going to explain what goes where.. and why... rather than just getting you to hit half a dozen balls without shanking them. I do think your swing has improved... and I think it will continue to do so... I'm going to keep pushing you!!!!


I certainly don't buy into the 'just swing it' theory, or 'go with what you have', for example; if someone wants to go to the practice ground to work on their putting then that's brilliant... I would never stop them from trying to be better... and if they need a lesson to learn a better putting stroke then that's probably waaaay better than just going with what they have - the same applies to the full golf swing.

Not purely about what is being taught IMO, a lot of it is people having the time and inclination to practise what they are meant to be doing.

Are you suggesting that pros don't know what they are teaching?

Most of my mates that get lessons just don't persevere with what they should be doing.

This is precisely the reason I refuse to get lessons, I have zero time to practice what I'm shown so I'd be as well chucking £30 out the window.......

 

[3PuttCharlie]

Over the years I've had lessons with several different pro's in my area with varying results.

I was always keen to improve so listened to what they said, but with some of the guys I felt like they were more interested in selling me new gear.

I met my current coach and during our first lesson he got me to hit some shots, he watched for a few minutes and then asked me a bit about my game. what was good, what was bad and my goals..I said I wanted to get to cat 1 and then re-evaluate when I got there.

He looked at me for a few seconds and then told me to put my clubs away and get into the gym for the winter, lose a stone and get some flexibility...which made me laugh and a good friendship was born.

when we got into the lessons he quickly identified that I was more of a feel player and that when things get technical, I think too much and any ability I have disappears. These days he shows me what he wants me to do then I try and copy it...and it seems to work...it helps that we play together quite a bit

each lesson gets me closer to where I want to be...but I don't always have the time to practice as much as I'd like and the practice facilities locally are pretty poor, so I often feel like I'm starting over

Overall, I'm all for having lessons...the best advice I'd give is if you are going to have them, practice what you're taught

 

[talksalot81]

They will work for some, not for others. It also depends what you want to achieve. Maybe you have good coordination and the whole thing works - you can get good without a lot of help. You can also have good coordination but do something fundamentally wrong - then you will find a wall somewhere. Try to cross it and you need the pro and you will really regret that you have a swing that is so well grooved to do something that turns out to be wrong. I can testify to this - some things are really hard to 'unlearn'. Alternatively, you can have less than good coordination and then you will just be bad from the go and you need all the help you can get by getting a lesson and getting the basics in place so you aren't making life harder than it needs to be.

Ultimately, inspite of the fact that dozens of lessons and years of practice have failed to fix my grooved fault, I would recommend everyone take a lesson every now and again. You may decide you don't need help but I think more people will benefit than will suffer.

 

[Alex1975]

He was telling you stuff and you didn't do it? why continue with the lessons? Did you discuss this with him?

Just interested 'in the story' mate, that's all...... I thought your game was heading in the right direction....?

Could not do it... The position he wanted me in made it feel impossible to get back the the ball. I will PM you as the full story gets boring to most. Game is better than I ever thought it could be.

 

[Snelly]

I think the way you learn is a critical factor in how you approach the game of golf.

Kid2 - it seems that you feel the need to have an understanding of what is going on in the swing in order to be able to successfully hit a good shot. If this works for you then that is great but for others with different learning styles, this will add a layer of complexity to the process that is not actually required.

I haven't ever had lessons but did play with a Cat 1 player (my grandfather) hundreds of times between the ages of 9 and 16. To learn to swing the club, I just tried to copy him and then when I was at home in the garden, I used to spend a fair bit of time swinging a club in front of a large garage window that acted as a mirror. All I did was try and make my swing look as close to Tom Watsons or Seve's as possible and I think it worked and was a good way to learn for me at least.

But learning to swing the club nicely is not the same as learning to play golf is it? Far from it in fact. I learned to actually play the game by playing hundreds of rounds of golf and through the summer holidays, this was almost a round a day for 6 weeks. I learned by refining what I was doing. I stuck with what worked and messed around with what didn't until it did. That is my learning style. Try things and when it works, improve it.

Two of my best golfing mates learned to play in a very similar way to me and both are better than me as they are off 2 and 0. No lessons, no understanding of ball flight laws, a total lack of interest in swing mechanics and barely a passing interest in custom fitting or the latest clubs. What they are good at though is putting the clubface back square on the ball and hitting it where they want it to go. Good course management and a sound short game mean they are good golfers. They learned the game through hundreds of hours of doing and refining what worked. That is surely how you learn to be a golfer? It cannot really be taught in a series of half hour lessons.

I am not having a go at people who are really into the swing and how it works. Nor do I think lessons are a bad thing if they work for you. I appreciate that for some people, this is really interesting stuff and crucial to their learning pathway. However, what I would take issue with is the idea that you have to understand laws/mechanics etc in order to be a good player. You absolutely do not. Nor are lessons a pre-requisite to learning the game and becoming proficient. They are just one way of learning (to swing the club and hit the ball rather than learning the game!) and neither lessons nor ball laws are any kind of short cut to excellence. You still have to put the hours in, irrespective of how you are learning to play.

The counter argument is naturally, what is the point of just playing if you have major things that are wrong? This doesn't hold water for me. Stop what you are doing wrong and start repeating the things you are doing right! If you don't know what they are than quite clearly, seek expert advice from a professional but make sure it is one that fits your learning style.

In conclusion, I would say that the people I play with regularly are mostly self taught and don't have lessons, nor have they ever to any great extent. In fact, outside this forum, I don't know many people that do have lessons at all, irrespective of their handicaps.

Maybe the form attracts those golfers that are very, very keen and consequently, a higher emphasis is put on swing ideas and lessons from pros than is actually necessary?

 

[two-clubs]

Maybe the forum attracts those golfers that are very, very keen and consequently, a higher emphasis is put on swing ideas and lessons from pros than is actually necessary?

Most definitely imo - these days one of my first ports of call if I want to find out something online is a forum such as this, it works for everything, cars, gardening, DIY etc etc, forums are generally a very useful source of info.

 

[Alex1975]

I think the way you learn is a critical factor in how you approach the game of golf.

Kid2 - it seems that you feel the need to have an understanding of what is going on in the swing in order to be able to successfully hit a good shot. If this works for you then that is great but for others with different learning styles, this will add a layer of complexity to the process that is not actually required.

I haven't ever had lessons but did play with a Cat 1 player (my grandfather) hundreds of times between the ages of 9 and 16. To learn to swing the club, I just tried to copy him and then when I was at home in the garden, I used to spend a fair bit of time swinging a club in front of a large garage window that acted as a mirror. All I did was try and make my swing look as close to Tom Watsons or Seve's as possible and I think it worked and was a good way to learn for me at least.

But learning to swing the club nicely is not the same as learning to play golf is it? Far from it in fact. I learned to actually play the game by playing hundreds of rounds of golf and through the summer holidays, this was almost a round a day for 6 weeks. I learned by refining what I was doing. I stuck with what worked and messed around with what didn't until it did. That is my learning style. Try things and when it works, improve it.

Two of my best golfing mates learned to play in a very similar way to me and both are better than me as they are off 2 and 0. No lessons, no understanding of ball flight laws, a total lack of interest in swing mechanics and barely a passing interest in custom fitting or the latest clubs. What they are good at though is putting the clubface back square on the ball and hitting it where they want it to go. Good course management and a sound short game mean they are good golfers. They learned the game through hundreds of hours of doing and refining what worked. That is surely how you learn to be a golfer? It cannot really be taught in a series of half hour lessons.

I am not having a go at people who are really into the swing and how it works. Nor do I think lessons are a bad thing if they work for you. I appreciate that for some people, this is really interesting stuff and crucial to their learning pathway. However, what I would take issue with is the idea that you have to understand laws/mechanics etc in order to be a good player. You absolutely do not. Nor are lessons a pre-requisite to learning the game and becoming proficient. They are just one way of learning (to swing the club and hit the ball rather than learning the game!) and neither lessons nor ball laws are any kind of short cut to excellence. You still have to put the hours in, irrespective of how you are learning to play.

The counter argument is naturally, what is the point of just playing if you have major things that are wrong? This doesn't hold water for me. Stop what you are doing wrong and start repeating the things you are doing right! If you don't know what they are than quite clearly, seek expert advice from a professional but make sure it is one that fits your learning style.

In conclusion, I would say that the people I play with regularly are mostly self taught and don't have lessons, nor have they ever to any great extent. In fact, outside this forum, I don't know many people that do have lessons at all, irrespective of their handicaps.

Maybe the form attracts those golfers that are very, very keen and consequently, a higher emphasis is put on swing ideas and lessons from pros than is actually necessary?

In the past (genuinely with all due respect) I would have seen this as a "talented player" not understanding the plight of the poor handicap golfer. Well maybe not this post but some others, you know the "just hit it find it hit it again" type. I know all the ball flight laws, I understand spin, path and all that good stuff, I have a better than average understanding of most things technical with golf and equipment and right here right now non of it is worth anything. I seem to be moving FAST in the direction of thinking about target and getting the ball to it. I am thinking about tempo and balance not path and face angle, I am thinking about what it will feel like not what it will look like.

I think your post is extremely insightful, in the past your views have been somewhat talked about slightly out of context but actually you put a HUGE amount of time into your game it was not just bestowed on you. I 100% subscribe to what you have said.

I am glad to know about the technical things as they interest me but it has no place when I am swinging a club.

 

[JustOne]

1) They learned the game through hundreds of hours of doing and refining what worked. That is surely how you learn to be a golfer? It cannot really be taught in a series of half hour lessons.

2) Stop what you are doing wrong and start repeating the things you are doing right! If you don't know what they are than quite clearly, seek expert advice from a professional but make sure it is one that fits your learning style.

That's some contradiction you have hidden away in those 2 snippets of your post :thup:

 

[Snelly]

That's some contradiction you have hidden away in those 2 snippets of your post :thup:

Not at all. Just a slight misunderstanding on your part. The first highlighted point refers to becoming a golfer and the second point relates to swinging the club. Two quite different things. Apologies if this wasn't clear.

 

[One Planer]

I haven't given up on lessons yet.

The main reason I haven't is since the last changes he made became more natural, I'm playing some of the best, most consistent golf, I've ever played.

I'm away for 2 weeks on a holiday after next Thursday but plan on booking another lesson when I get back.

I suppose I'll get to the point later on when I feel I have gotten as far as I can and accept that I've found my level. I'll still have lessons, but they'll be more infrequest, swing M-O-T type, lessons just to check everything is in order.

 

[JustOne]

Not at all. Just a slight misunderstanding on your part. The first highlighted point refers to becoming a golfer and the second point relates to swinging the club. Two quite different things. Apologies if this wasn't clear.

ahh,.... so to be a golfer you have to just swing for hundreds of hours but you can't have a lesson in case it teaches you how to do it properly.... much clearer,.. like mud

 

[Robobum]

ahh,.... so to be a golfer you have to just swing for hundreds of hours but you can't have a lesson in case it teaches you how to do it properly.... much clearer,.. like mud

I still can't get what "properly" means.

If the ball sails off to the intended target and flies the intended distance surely that is a proper swing, whatever it looks like or wherever it goes?

 

[JustOne]

I still can't get what "properly" means.

If the ball sails off to the intended target and flies the intended distance surely that is a proper swing, whatever it looks like or wherever it goes?

If you took a run up to do that would it be a proper swing?
If you had one hand in your pocket would it be a proper swing?
If you swing the club around your ankles before lifting it and chopping down on to the ball like an axe would that be proper?

Would you TEACH any of those 'proper' swings?

Not sure what your issue is with doing something more 'properly', but feel free to carry on bickering :thup:

 

[Snelly]

ahh,.... so to be a golfer you have to just swing for hundreds of hours but you can't have a lesson in case it teaches you how to do it properly.... much clearer,.. like mud

No and I am not sure how you can attribute that statement to the posts I have written unless you are just trying to be deliberately confrontational?

Either way, I can't be bothered to argue with you.

 

[Robobum]

If you took a run up to do that would it be a proper swing?
If you had one hand in your pocket would it be a proper swing?
If you swing the club around your ankles before lifting it and chopping down on to the ball like an axe would that be proper?

Would you TEACH any of those 'proper' swings?

Not sure what your issue is with doing something more 'properly', but feel free to carry on bickering :thup:

I'm not bickering, so I don't see why the need to be so defensive.

None of the above is an explanation of what a proper swing is.

Does Adam Scott swing properly?

Does Sandy Lyle swing properly?

Both very different but both swings capable of donning a green jacket.

 

[Fish]

Not sure what your issue is with doing something more 'properly', but feel free to carry on bickering :thup:

Another classy response

It seems that if anyone debates or questions you, you take it as putting you down and bickering when all that is actually happening is were asking you to qualify some of the terms you like to use, again the word "properly" coming to the fore.

As to your flippant response about running up to the ball or having one hand in your pocket, if the ball went exactly the direction and distance they wanted it to but someone who attempted to do it "properly" was short, long or in trouble, who is the better golfer?

Has golf become a visual sport for the purest or is it still a numbers game?

 

[JustOne]

None of the above is an explanation of what a proper swing is.

Does Adam Scott swing properly?

Does Sandy Lyle swing properly?

Both very different but both swings capable of donning a green jacket.

Does Homer swing properly?

I think the part that you're not understanding is that there's more then one way to swing properly and you seem to interpret my posts as if there's only one way. If you re-watch my post about the backswing (that seems to be the crux of your argument) you might spot the part where I state that people can have different p2 positions... therefore they are NOT swinging exactly the same.... but the fundamentals run true.